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darthed1981

Cranky said:

LionAquaLooper said:

Cranky said:

Kurtis said:

It's a bit of a tricky one.

If you say someone is a "nazi sympathiser" there are all sorts of implications. 

True.  I mean, I do technically feel bad for nazis.

Wow.  

Well, they’re clearly troubled, weak-minded people.  

Read a story.

Young Jewish woman on a train, being taken away from her home by the Nazis.  The train briefly stops, and her little two year old daughter falls out into the snow.

When the woman gets out to help, a guard comes up and tells her he will shoot her if she helps her child.

She tells him she would rather die than leave her helpless child to die in the snow.

Then, says the guard, if you don't get back in, he will machine gun every man woman and child in the car with her.

The woman gets back into the train, and leaves her baby to die.

By the time they reached their destination, the young woman was of course quite mad with grief.

Fuck the Nazis.

FWIW, also fuck the Duke of Windsor (formally Edward VIII) who was considered so much of a sympathiser the Germans planned to put him on the throne again following a successful invasion, and indeed this was communicated, with some evidence of at least agreement, to the Duke through neutral channels.

Also of course, the Nazis would have murdered all our Jews, Homosexuals, intellectuals and anyone else deemed a threat... Noel Coward was on the list.

Fortunately, Spitfires, Hurricanes, the world's most advanced air defence system, the Empire and the world's largest navy protecting our moat... and the rest is history.

But seriously though, fuck the Nazis.

Kurtis

Cranky said:

Kurtis said:

 

Cranky said:

Kurtis said:

It's a bit of a tricky one.

If you say someone is a "nazi sympathiser" there are all sorts of implications. 

True.  I mean, I do technically feel bad for nazis.

Surely though, and I'm not just talking about anyone in particular, there's a difference between being diplomatically pro Germanys new government and being a holocaust denier? 

I officially don’t know what you’re talking about.  I’ve gotten myself cornered trying to be a bit of a Pantagruel.  

Poor Kate.

Well, cock knuckles! 

Kurtis

darthed1981 said:

Cranky said:

LionAquaLooper said:

Cranky said:

Kurtis said:

It's a bit of a tricky one.

If you say someone is a "nazi sympathiser" there are all sorts of implications. 

True.  I mean, I do technically feel bad for nazis.

Wow.  

Well, they’re clearly troubled, weak-minded people.  

Read a story.

Young Jewish woman on a train, being taken away from her home by the Nazis.  The train briefly stops, and her little two year old daughter falls out into the snow.

When the woman gets out to help, a guard comes up and tells her he will shoot her if she helps her child.

She tells him she would rather die than leave her helpless child to die in the snow.

Then, says the guard, if you don't get back in, he will machine gun every man woman and child in the car with her.

The woman gets back into the train, and leaves her baby to die.

By the time they reached their destination, the young woman was of course quite mad with grief.

Fuck the Nazis.

FWIW, also fuck the Duke of Windsor (formally Edward VIII) who was considered so much of a sympathiser the Germans planned to put him on the throne again following a successful invasion, and indeed this was communicated, with some evidence of at least agreement, to the Duke through neutral channels.

Also of course, the Nazis would have murdered all our Jews, Homosexuals, intellectuals and anyone else deemed a threat... Noel Coward was on the list.

Fortunately, Spitfires, Hurricanes, the world's most advanced air defence system, the Empire and the world's largest navy protecting our moat... and the rest is history.

But seriously though, fuck the Nazis.

I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

ICBM

Kurtis said:

I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

Especially as there seems to be a considerable resurgence in the far right recently.

JerkMoans

Godwin's Law a go-go.

darthed1981

Kurtis said:

darthed1981 said:

Cranky said:

LionAquaLooper said:

Cranky said:

Kurtis said:

It's a bit of a tricky one.

If you say someone is a "nazi sympathiser" there are all sorts of implications. 

True.  I mean, I do technically feel bad for nazis.

Wow.  

Well, they’re clearly troubled, weak-minded people.  

Read a story.

Young Jewish woman on a train, being taken away from her home by the Nazis.  The train briefly stops, and her little two year old daughter falls out into the snow.

When the woman gets out to help, a guard comes up and tells her he will shoot her if she helps her child.

She tells him she would rather die than leave her helpless child to die in the snow.

Then, says the guard, if you don't get back in, he will machine gun every man woman and child in the car with her.

The woman gets back into the train, and leaves her baby to die.

By the time they reached their destination, the young woman was of course quite mad with grief.

Fuck the Nazis.

FWIW, also fuck the Duke of Windsor (formally Edward VIII) who was considered so much of a sympathiser the Germans planned to put him on the throne again following a successful invasion, and indeed this was communicated, with some evidence of at least agreement, to the Duke through neutral channels.

Also of course, the Nazis would have murdered all our Jews, Homosexuals, intellectuals and anyone else deemed a threat... Noel Coward was on the list.

Fortunately, Spitfires, Hurricanes, the world's most advanced air defence system, the Empire and the world's largest navy protecting our moat... and the rest is history.

But seriously though, fuck the Nazis.

I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

I've been studying WW2 for my whole life, and nothing I've read or discovered has given me a single second of pause in calling the Nazis utterly, irredeemably evil.

I've never read a single piece of history by a serious historian that came to any other conclusion.

Does that make the actions of the allies all good and justifiable and correct?  No it doesn't, but then I never said that.

Philly_Q

ICBM said:

Kurtis said:
I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

Especially as there seems to be a considerable resurgence in the far right recently.

I think if you take out the "our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose" part, it's probably pretty accurate.  Although I agree that labelling people as "monsters" - whether that's Hitler, Fred West, Peter Sutcliffe or whoever - completely misses the point that they were in fact very much human.  It's too easy to say "they're not like us".  We need to learn from situations where humanity goes so horribly wrong.

darthed1981

Philly_Q said:

ICBM said:

Kurtis said:
I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

Especially as there seems to be a considerable resurgence in the far right recently.

I think if you take out the "our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose" part, it's probably pretty accurate.  Although I agree that labelling people as "monsters" - whether that's Hitler, Fred West, Peter Sutcliffe or whoever - completely misses the point that they were in fact very much human.  It's too easy to say "they're not like us".  We need to learn from situations where humanity goes so horribly wrong.

I agree with the second part - totally - but I don't think calling anyone a monster takes anything away from the study of that monstrousity.

The opposite tendency is dangerous as well - if you apply too much revisionism and half-truth to history (cough David Irving cough) you can quickly start to build a lie some people will believe that the Nazis actually weren't that bad.

They really really were though.

Philly_Q

darthed1981 said:

Philly_Q said:

ICBM said:

Kurtis said:
I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

Especially as there seems to be a considerable resurgence in the far right recently.

I think if you take out the "our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose" part, it's probably pretty accurate.  Although I agree that labelling people as "monsters" - whether that's Hitler, Fred West, Peter Sutcliffe or whoever - completely misses the point that they were in fact very much human.  It's too easy to say "they're not like us".  We need to learn from situations where humanity goes so horribly wrong.

I agree with the second part - totally - but I don't think calling anyone a monster takes anything away from the study of that monstrousity.

The opposite tendency is dangerous as well - if you apply too much revisionism and half-truth to history (cough David Irving cough) you can quickly start to build a lie some people will believe that the Nazis actually weren't that bad.

They really really were though.

Please, please don't misunderstand me.  I'm not for a minute suggesting they "weren't that bad".  Recognising the humanity of those people doesn't in any way excuse, justify or soften what they did.  But "monster" suggests "other than human" and I think some people find it easy to dismiss, or compartmentalise, wrongdoers in that way.  "They're not like us" and therefore we can kid ourselves there's no-one else like them.  

In fact they are exactly like us, in who they are and where they come from.  Something went wrong somewhere in their lives, they are utterly, utterly fucked up, but they are human, and some - many? - humans are capable of doing terrible things.  But the rest of us tend to think "oh, they wouldn't do that, they wouldn't go that far".  And that's how these appalling people end up in positions of power.  There are several of them acting as presidents/heads of state right now.  And more waiting in the wings.

darthed1981

Philly_Q said:

darthed1981 said:

Philly_Q said:

ICBM said:

Kurtis said:
I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

Especially as there seems to be a considerable resurgence in the far right recently.

I think if you take out the "our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose" part, it's probably pretty accurate.  Although I agree that labelling people as "monsters" - whether that's Hitler, Fred West, Peter Sutcliffe or whoever - completely misses the point that they were in fact very much human.  It's too easy to say "they're not like us".  We need to learn from situations where humanity goes so horribly wrong.

I agree with the second part - totally - but I don't think calling anyone a monster takes anything away from the study of that monstrousity.

The opposite tendency is dangerous as well - if you apply too much revisionism and half-truth to history (cough David Irving cough) you can quickly start to build a lie some people will believe that the Nazis actually weren't that bad.

They really really were though.

Please, please don't misunderstand me.  I'm not for a minute suggesting they "weren't that bad".  Recognising the humanity of those people doesn't in any way excuse, justify or soften what they did.  But "monster" suggests "other than human" and I think some people find it easy to dismiss, or compartmentalise, wrongdoers in that way.  "They're not like us" and therefore we can kid ourselves there's no-one else like them.  

In fact they are exactly like us, in who they are and where they come from.  Something went wrong somewhere in their lives, they are utterly, utterly fucked up, but they are human, and some - many? - humans are capable of doing terrible things.  But the rest of us tend to think "oh, they wouldn't do that, they wouldn't go that far".  And that's how these appalling people end up in positions of power.  There are several of them acting as presidents/heads of state right now.  And more waiting in the wings.

Fair - wis awarded.

Cranky

^^^ that’s exactly it.  Many of us seem uncomfortable with humanizing Nazis, which is troubling.

Has anyone here read Aime Cesaire?

So, yes, obviously fuck the Nazis.  But that’s too easy, and I don’t need a story that might or might not have happened to justify saying “fuck Nazis” because there are already so many documented reasons to say it.  Nazism is a fucked up ideology consisting of fucked up deeds and horrors.

My point, though, is that the dehumanization and the strongly worded consternation doesn’t really do anything other than make me feel good about myself and, potentially, gives some nascent Nazi a martyr complex.  So, yes, I truly feel bad for people who are so pathetic and weak-minded as to arrive at such a conclusion as Nazism.  They’re being conned.  But arguing with them and saying “fuck them” is completely the wrong way to go about it.  It’s like arguing with a child; ultimately all you’ve done is become childish.  And you can’t convince anyone that they’re being conned, it just doesn’t work.  It all needs redirection and redemption, not counterpoints and insults (however warranted they are).

Oh, and I hope Kate’s ok.  She seems nice.

Kurtis

Philly_Q said:

darthed1981 said:

Philly_Q said:

ICBM said:

Kurtis said:
I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

Especially as there seems to be a considerable resurgence in the far right recently.

I think if you take out the "our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose" part, it's probably pretty accurate.  Although I agree that labelling people as "monsters" - whether that's Hitler, Fred West, Peter Sutcliffe or whoever - completely misses the point that they were in fact very much human.  It's too easy to say "they're not like us".  We need to learn from situations where humanity goes so horribly wrong.

I agree with the second part - totally - but I don't think calling anyone a monster takes anything away from the study of that monstrousity.

The opposite tendency is dangerous as well - if you apply too much revisionism and half-truth to history (cough David Irving cough) you can quickly start to build a lie some people will believe that the Nazis actually weren't that bad.

They really really were though.

Please, please don't misunderstand me.  I'm not for a minute suggesting they "weren't that bad".  Recognising the humanity of those people doesn't in any way excuse, justify or soften what they did.  But "monster" suggests "other than human" and I think some people find it easy to dismiss, or compartmentalise, wrongdoers in that way.  "They're not like us" and therefore we can kid ourselves there's no-one else like them.  

In fact they are exactly like us, in who they are and where they come from.  Something went wrong somewhere in their lives, they are utterly, utterly fucked up, but they are human, and some - many? - humans are capable of doing terrible things.  But the rest of us tend to think "oh, they wouldn't do that, they wouldn't go that far".  And that's how these appalling people end up in positions of power.  There are several of them acting as presidents/heads of state right now.  And more waiting in the wings.

One thing I'd say is I'm not sure comparing the right leaning leaders of today with the fascist states of 30/40s Europe is right.

It seems like doing a bit of a disservice to the people that lived through that time. 

darthed1981

Kurtis said:

Philly_Q said:

darthed1981 said:

Philly_Q said:

ICBM said:

Kurtis said:
I don't really like the whole nazis were an evil monster marching across Europe and our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose type narrative.

I think that if we are to learn from it we need to look at it more objectively. 

Especially as there seems to be a considerable resurgence in the far right recently.

I think if you take out the "our chaps gave them a jolly good bop on the nose" part, it's probably pretty accurate.  Although I agree that labelling people as "monsters" - whether that's Hitler, Fred West, Peter Sutcliffe or whoever - completely misses the point that they were in fact very much human.  It's too easy to say "they're not like us".  We need to learn from situations where humanity goes so horribly wrong.

I agree with the second part - totally - but I don't think calling anyone a monster takes anything away from the study of that monstrousity.

The opposite tendency is dangerous as well - if you apply too much revisionism and half-truth to history (cough David Irving cough) you can quickly start to build a lie some people will believe that the Nazis actually weren't that bad.

They really really were though.

Please, please don't misunderstand me.  I'm not for a minute suggesting they "weren't that bad".  Recognising the humanity of those people doesn't in any way excuse, justify or soften what they did.  But "monster" suggests "other than human" and I think some people find it easy to dismiss, or compartmentalise, wrongdoers in that way.  "They're not like us" and therefore we can kid ourselves there's no-one else like them.  

In fact they are exactly like us, in who they are and where they come from.  Something went wrong somewhere in their lives, they are utterly, utterly fucked up, but they are human, and some - many? - humans are capable of doing terrible things.  But the rest of us tend to think "oh, they wouldn't do that, they wouldn't go that far".  And that's how these appalling people end up in positions of power.  There are several of them acting as presidents/heads of state right now.  And more waiting in the wings.

The one thing I'd say is I'm not sure comparing the right leaning leaders of today with the fascist states of 30/40s Europe is right.

It seems like doing a bit of a disservice to the people that lived through that time. 

Quite

Also even the most basic research on the people who ran Nazi Germany would reveal people who were anything but "weak minded".

Many were razor sharp, capable and utterly vicious genuine believers.

Cranky

^^^ again, check out Aime Cesaire.  Discourse on Colonialism.  

And surely we can differentiate between the leaders and the followers, and between the ideology itself and its underlying machinations vis-a-vis political power and material gain.  Not to mention the blend of long term and short term contexts that made Nazism look like the right answer to so many people.

It’s like what’s going on currently in the States.  There’s the handful of intellectuals at Claremont Institute and whatnot, and then there’s the millions of frightened believers.

But either way, hate is for the weak.

And I hope Kate’s doing alright.  I wonder if she’s on Peleton.

Kurtis

The nazis got in to power because people were scared. Europe was pretty fucked up before the war.
Poland was burning and it was coming to Germany next. 

darthed1981

Kurtis said:

The nazis got in to power because people were scared. Europe was pretty fucked up before the war.
Poland was burning and it was coming to Germany next. 

They got into power because they told people what they wanted to hear.  Hitler was actually a bit of a genius in this, for example winning the support of several major unions by promising the extra holiday they were after... which he delivered.. then he banned the unions (subsequently, you would end up in a concentration camp for running one).

Poland struggled between the wars as a country made up of many different nationalities and with a weak industrial base.  Most countries of the period who struggled flirted with the Far Right and Poland was no different (it isn't that different today).  They also rather unwisely poked the bear with both their powerful neighbours.

They did have the ability to make decent combat aircraft and a large-enough military, but with two long borders with Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, all they could really do when invaded in close succession by both was fight bravely... which they did.  Their utterly outmatched PZ11 fighters inflicted over 300 losses on the Luftwaffe.

Germany was recovering strongly as a country before the Nazis rose to power and there was a lot of pressure to relax the Treaty of Versailles to allow them to recover better.  Although WW2 is often considered an inevitable consequence of WW1, there were almost as many opportunities to avoid it as there were before WW1.

Cranky said:

^^^ again, check out Aime Cesaire.  Discourse on Colonialism.  

And surely we can differentiate between the leaders and the followers, and between the ideology itself and its underlying machinations vis-a-vis political power and material gain.  Not to mention the blend of long term and short term contexts that made Nazism look like the right answer to so many people.

It’s like what’s going on currently in the States.  There’s the handful of intellectuals at Claremont Institute and whatnot, and then there’s the millions of frightened believers.

But either way, hate is for the weak.

Well you sort of nail your colours to the mast by saying "aha but Cesaire was right about everything" - presumably referring directly to a belief that Hitler was the west's justified punishment for colonialism? 

Well as much as there is a lot of truth in what he said about colonialism, especially that it was largely carried out for economic reasons, I think that's just sour intellectual grapes, or bluntly, it's horse shit, plus he was a communist, and communism is also horse shit (just so it's clear, I think this might be where we fundamentally differ).

Revisionism in history is great and all - but part of the point of it is to challenge dogma - certain WW2 historians like Richard Overy (who is brilliant, while we are doing book recommendations) has made a career out of doing this. 

His latest book is actually about WW2 re-framed as the inevitable end of the imperial era - a massive clash between the old, largely pragmatically motivated empires and the vicious, ideologically motivated new ones.

It's fashionable, and very wrong, to put the British Empire, or French Empire in a box with these new empires and say they were just as bad - they weren't.  None of the old Empires would have wanted to wipe out the entire populations of Slavs (Germany) or the Chinese (Japan) to make space for "their own people", for example.

That again doesn't make the Imperial past a good thing - there is a lot of shame to be had there - and the end of empires in the 1950s was well overdue.  WW2 was largely a fight between the future we got and now very comfortably live in and the sort of world the Nazis would have built.

If we had lost - what would have happened to the black population of Africa?  Hitler was very little more fond of black people than Jews, and without the British resistance there, all of it would have been conquered.  He would have either turned them into a slowly-dying race of starving slaves, or simply shoved them all through the gas chambers.

As for hate being for the weak, I happily admit I hate the Nazis and everything they stood for, I hate death camps, I hate that the Japanese killed 300,000 Chinese for helping the 50 Doolittle raiders escape, and I'm glad Hitler's empire ended with a bullet in a bunker under Berlin, while his mate Goebbels next door murdered his six young children, as if to point out to history just what an asshole he was.

Kurtis

You see it's difficult to discuss these things. 

darthed1981

Kurtis said:

You see it's difficult to discuss these things. 

It is.

Kurtis

In Poland before the war there were riots in the streets, curfews, homes and cars being burnt and bombed, people dying.
The nazis were one of many nationalist groups at the time. 

darthed1981

Kurtis said:

In Poland before the war there were riots in the streets, curfews, homes and cars being burnt and bombed, people dying.
The nazis were one of many nationalist groups at the time. 

Poland definitely had its challenges between the wars, including their own right wingers.

Though Nazi is a term thrown around for any populist authoritarian these days, I've personally always been referring to the National Socialists of Germany.