Hot pickups unnecessary?

strtdv

The longer I play the guitar the more I gravitate towards lower output pickups, they just seem to let the sound "breathe" more, they're more dynamic, seem to be more detailed, and cope with gain just as well as high output pickups.

It must be a hangover from the days when amps were intrinsically lower gain and you had to push them harder. These days when high gain means cascading gain stages high output pickups just seem unnecessary. On the odd occasion where you may need to drive the amp hard there are very good clean boosts that can drive the amp harder than any pickup.

Maybe I'm just getting old?

Revolutions

Not just you. I used to put DiMarzio Super Distortions into every guitar I owned until about 10 years ago. Now I’m PAF, Tele bridge or cool rails. All feels much nicer when everything doesn’t start at ‘in your face’.

CarbonCopy

For me, it was the over exuberance of youth and inexperience coupled with the excitement of loud rock and metal music. There's a lack of subtlety to certain genres of music, therefore getting the amp with the most distortion and the pickup with the highest possible output appears the best way to go.

I think it can still work quite well, but is not very versatile. My experience is that high output pickups tend to sound very mid heavy and lacking in treble. Turning down the pickup to attempt to clean it up tends to highlight this more due to the high frequency roll off. I tried to remedy this by having a lower output pickup in the neck or middle, but the sound was often extremely unbalanced when switching between the two.

Once I realised that having excessive amounts of gain/distortion had the opposite of the intended effect, i.e. the guitar got lost in the mix and didn't cut through, I switched to lower output pickups and amps. 

It was the same for me thinking a scooped mid sound which sounded great at home should work playing in a band. Lower output pickups, less distortion and more mids made my sound a lot more punchy!

guitarmangler

I use lower output pickups now too, but I’ll boost ‘em with, er, a booster.

I think we associate high output pickups with a louder, mid eq’d, compressed sound ( which is harder to make clean). Newer/more modern high output pickups sometimes use fancy neo magnets to be loud and uncompressed. 

HAL9000

Low(ish) output pickups for me too. Just more defined and articulate in my opinion.

Lebarque

Yeh, I agree PAFs and Tele bridge pups are about the sweet spot. 7-8k ish.

Any lower just feels underpowered, so I get slightly hot strat pups - Oil City Stone Tones in my case.

Anything higher is just too much, not as dynamic etc.

Depends what music etc you play I guess, but I think you're about spot on.

tekbow

I believe george lynch was a proponent of this. Screamin' demons weren't particularly high output.

My sweet spot seems to be 16kohm though. I know this isn't a measure of output necessarily, but most pickups I'm happy with seem to be around here.

My kotzen tele has an 8ish k rail pickup and that's quite nice. Doesn't lack in hairiness or aggression.

JayGee

I’ve felt this way for ages. Not everybody agrees but I find I get more satisfactory results trying to add the characteristics which generally go with a high output pickup to a low output pickup through boost, EQ, amp gain, etc, than I do trying to add the characteristics of a low output pickup to a higher output one. 

There’ll be a whole bunch of people along at any minute to say this is huge over simplification and a sweeping generalisation (which I cheerfully concede it is), but it works for me with my amps, my guitars, my playing style/technique[1], and the kind of music I play with the band I’m in, and that’s the important thing regardless of how you get there…

[1] Or absence thereof…

jellybelly

I think the super hot pickups have their place but, as others have said, I find I get a better 'heavy' tone with lower output picks. More full-range and dynamic. You can add gain with pedals and amps. Just stacking a boost in there probably gives a similar response. 

If you're a straight-into-amp person then I can see the use, or metal where it's sort of part of the tone, although active pickups sort of improve some of the negatives of hot-wound pickups ... I think?

OilCityPickups

All this would be lovely and fine ... if the DC resistance figures folks talked about actually meant something ... which in isolation they simply don't. 
Take my 1950s Dynasonics that I rebuilt for my red Telecaster project ... they have less turns of wire than an 8k P90 but they are 12.75k which should make them 'high output' in the books of the 'resistance figure slaves' ... they are in fact crisp, wide range and quite 'high fidelity'. 
DC resistance is nothing to do with output ... it's just resistance. 

CarbonCopy

OilCityPickups said:

All this would be lovely and fine ... if the DC resistance figures folks talked about actually meant something ... which in isolation they simply don't. 
Take my 1950s Dynasonics that I rebuilt for my red Telecaster project ... they have less turns of wire than an 8k P90 but they are 12.75k which should make them 'high output' in the books of the 'resistance figure slaves' ... they are in fact crisp, wide range and quite 'high fidelity'. 
DC resistance is nothing to do with output ... it's just resistance. 

I think you may have missed the point. Only two posts refer to DC resistance. The phrase "all this would be lovely and fine" seems to intend to dismiss the entire thread.

The consensus so far is generally lower output pickups are preferred because they are more dynamic and if a heavier sound is needed, it can easily be achieved through a boost pedal.

What's your opinion on this as a pickup designer and manufacturer? Do you sell more high output or low output pickups?

OilCityPickups

CarbonCopy said:

OilCityPickups said:

All this would be lovely and fine ... if the DC resistance figures folks talked about actually meant something ... which in isolation they simply don't. 
Take my 1950s Dynasonics that I rebuilt for my red Telecaster project ... they have less turns of wire than an 8k P90 but they are 12.75k which should make them 'high output' in the books of the 'resistance figure slaves' ... they are in fact crisp, wide range and quite 'high fidelity'. 
DC resistance is nothing to do with output ... it's just resistance. 

I think you may have missed the point. Only two posts refer to DC resistance. The phrase "all this would be lovely and fine" seems to intend to dismiss the entire thread.

The consensus so far is generally lower output pickups are preferred because they are more dynamic and if a heavier sound is needed, it can easily be achieved through a boost pedal.

What's your opinion on this as a pickup designer and manufacturer? Do you sell more high output or low output pickups?

I see these threads all the time, and as a pickup winder i would say the whole definition of 'hot pickups' used by most people is flawed.
My most popular pickups in humbucker form are 13k bridge and 10k neck. These are only just over PAF winding levels and thus output ... and the DC resistance is just a function of their wire gauge. My most popular Tele bridge pickup is one wound to 9.9k which is actually vintage output for a 43awg early Tele pickup ... not high output at all. 

CarbonCopy

OilCityPickups said:

CarbonCopy said:

OilCityPickups said:

All this would be lovely and fine ... if the DC resistance figures folks talked about actually meant something ... which in isolation they simply don't. 
Take my 1950s Dynasonics that I rebuilt for my red Telecaster project ... they have less turns of wire than an 8k P90 but they are 12.75k which should make them 'high output' in the books of the 'resistance figure slaves' ... they are in fact crisp, wide range and quite 'high fidelity'. 
DC resistance is nothing to do with output ... it's just resistance. 

I think you may have missed the point. Only two posts refer to DC resistance. The phrase "all this would be lovely and fine" seems to intend to dismiss the entire thread.

The consensus so far is generally lower output pickups are preferred because they are more dynamic and if a heavier sound is needed, it can easily be achieved through a boost pedal.

What's your opinion on this as a pickup designer and manufacturer? Do you sell more high output or low output pickups?

I see these threads all the time, and as a pickup winder i would say the whole definition of 'hot pickups' used by most people is flawed.
My most popular pickups in humbucker form are 13k bridge and 10k neck. These are only just over PAF winding levels and thus output ... and the DC resistance is just a function of their wire gauge. My most popular Tele bridge pickup is one wound to 9.9k which is actually vintage output for a 43awg early Tele pickup ... not high output at all. 

I think there may be some crossed wires here (pun intended)! The OP was not about the DC resistance of pickups and neither was my response to it or my question to you. It's about hot pickups, by which the definition we're using is high output, not high DC resistance.

So setting aside the DC resistance of your pickups, it seems most of your customers also prefer lower output pickups.

Does higher output generally equate to less high frequencies and more mids, or can that be compensated by using different materials, magnets, wire gauge etc? That's what generally put me off the high output pickups I used in the past, but it may be that I was using the wrong ones.

OilCityPickups

CarbonCopy said:

OilCityPickups said:

CarbonCopy said:

OilCityPickups said:

All this would be lovely and fine ... if the DC resistance figures folks talked about actually meant something ... which in isolation they simply don't. 
Take my 1950s Dynasonics that I rebuilt for my red Telecaster project ... they have less turns of wire than an 8k P90 but they are 12.75k which should make them 'high output' in the books of the 'resistance figure slaves' ... they are in fact crisp, wide range and quite 'high fidelity'. 
DC resistance is nothing to do with output ... it's just resistance. 

I think you may have missed the point. Only two posts refer to DC resistance. The phrase "all this would be lovely and fine" seems to intend to dismiss the entire thread.

The consensus so far is generally lower output pickups are preferred because they are more dynamic and if a heavier sound is needed, it can easily be achieved through a boost pedal.

What's your opinion on this as a pickup designer and manufacturer? Do you sell more high output or low output pickups?

I see these threads all the time, and as a pickup winder i would say the whole definition of 'hot pickups' used by most people is flawed.
My most popular pickups in humbucker form are 13k bridge and 10k neck. These are only just over PAF winding levels and thus output ... and the DC resistance is just a function of their wire gauge. My most popular Tele bridge pickup is one wound to 9.9k which is actually vintage output for a 43awg early Tele pickup ... not high output at all. 

I think there may be some crossed wires here (pun intended)! The OP was not about the DC resistance of pickups and neither was my response to it or my question to you. It's about hot pickups, by which the definition we're using is high output, not high DC resistance.

So setting aside the DC resistance of your pickups, it seems most of your customers also prefer lower output pickups.

Does higher output generally equate to less high frequencies and more mids, or can that be compensated by using different materials, magnets, wire gauge etc? That's what generally put me off the high output pickups I used in the past, but it may be that I was using the wrong ones.

Indeed the original post wasn't ... but it's only a matter of time in these kind of threads where somebody starts to blather on about 7.9k being the 'perfect PAF wind ... without any reference to what magnet is used or any other factor. The balance between magnetic power (ie strength of field) turn count and gauge determines a pickup's tone ... it's all a balancing game. 
Also different amplifiers have different input sensitivities ...

My main caution here is generalisation: I generally spend a couple of hours a week on the phone to customers explaining for example the reason why 6k Strat pickup in the neck of a guitar can be louder than a humbucker in the bridge which they insist must be louder because of its higher DC resistance.

What I find is that preconceptions limit choice. 

GuyBoden

Could a hot pickup be used at lower volume, just by turning the guitar's volume control down?

I'm wondering, if anyone has ever turned down the volume control on a guitar.

I've noticed that there is a tone control on a guitar too.

Barquentine

I always went for higher output - JB, BK Abraxas, BK Rebel Yells. A couple of years back I got a Tele with TV Jones Classic Filtertrons - basically a Cabronita. Very low output pups. This is now my favourite guitar by a long stretch. The cleans are beautiful and it's capable of sounding as aggressive as anything but with wonderful string definition instead of mush. 

OilCityPickups

GuyBoden said:

Could a hot pickup be used at lower volume, just by turning the guitar's volume control down?

I'm wondering, if anyone has ever turned down the volume control on a guitar.

I've noticed that there is a tone control on a guitar too.

Exactly!!!! 

Barquentine said:

I always went for higher output - JB, BK Abraxas, BK Rebel Yells. A couple of years back I got a Tele with TV Jones Classic Filtertrons - basically a Cabronita. Very low output pups. This is now my favourite guitar by a long stretch. The cleans are beautiful and it's capable of sounding as aggressive as anything but with wonderful string definition instead of mush. 

Filtertrons are low winding level, but not low output ... they have magnets twice the size of a PAF which allows them to be pretty much as loud as an average PAF ... but because they use less wire ... there's more clarity.    

Kurtis

GuyBoden said:

Could a hot pickup be used at lower volume, just by turning the guitar's volume control down?

I'm wondering, if anyone has ever turned down the volume control on a guitar.

I've noticed that there is a tone control on a guitar too.

What about the same for low(er) output? 

I've been using a fuzz face type circuit first in line (so using volume a fair bit to clean up) with t-tops.

Tone is rarely up full either. 

ICBM

I feel there’s a danger of ‘output snobbery’ about some of this. Both high and low output pickups are perfectly good choices if you like what they do.

It’s not just about output level, it’s more to do with tone, harmonic content and dynamics. I prefer hotter bridge pickups and clearer neck pickups - they are not the same, and you can’t get the same sound as a high-output pickup from a low-output pickup using a pedal (even a mid boost, let alone a clean boost) or the sound of a low-output one by turning the volume down on a high one. I also prefer to have the bridge pickup intentionally louder than the neck.

OilCityPickups

ICBM said:

I feel there’s a danger of ‘output snobbery’ about some of this. Both high and low output pickups are perfectly good choices if you like what they do.

It’s not just about output level, it’s more to do with tone, harmonic content and dynamics. I prefer hotter bridge pickups and clearer neck pickups - they are not the same, and you can’t get the same sound as a high-output pickup from a low-output pickup using a pedal (even a mid boost, let alone a clean boost) or the sound of a low-output one by turning the volume down on a high one. I also prefer to have the bridge pickup intentionally louder than the neck.

Exactly this ... cork-sniffery and output-snobbery are close bedfellows ... neither output is better or worse. Different outputs are different brushes to paint a soundscape. More choice not less choice. 

FelineGuitars

With the proliferation of amp gain and channels I have tended to favour vintage or hot vintage output pickups for a while . 

But I have recently rekindled my love of what are often referred to as higher output pickups (even though that is down to a similar turn count with a finer wire gauge and often a big ceramic magnet)

I am liking the compression and frequency squeezing for the application I am using them for . 

Could I get that from the more vintage style pickups with EQs, comps and gain modifiers ...I'm sure I can but Sometimes a crunchy pickup into a "comparitively" lower gain amp can be fun