Can you gig with 20 watts?

DiscoStu

Is there a volume difference between using a 1x12 and a 2x12 with these lunchbox heads?

Boromedic

DiscoStu said:

Is there a volume difference between using a 1x12 and a 2x12 with these lunchbox heads?

Definitely, I had a 1x12 with a greenback and bought a Marshall 2x12 but upgraded the speakers to a Greenback and Vintage 30. Definite increase in volume for the same amp. 

octatonic

DiscoStu said:

Is there a volume difference between using a 1x12 and a 2x12 with these lunchbox heads?

Depends on the speakers.

A pair for G12-65M Creambacks will be about the same as a single G12-65H Creamback.

But like for like, yes.
It isn't just volume though- it is spread.
Mismatching a pair of speakers can be a great way to get a bigger sound from 2 speakers.

ecc83

A 2x12 will not be more sensitive than a single speaker of the same type except for a tiny increase due to a narrowing of the radiation pattern because the size of the source is increased. That is not usually seen in practice however because 2 bys are never used vertically!

The effect is much more pronounced with a 4 by 12 which have LONG been known for "chucking it out there!" Quite a few folks gig with a 4 by 12 and a five watt head!

So, if you really want to get their attention, stick your 2 by on a chair, on its end!

Dave.

Kebabkid

octatonic said:

DiscoStu said:

Is there a volume difference between using a 1x12 and a 2x12 with these lunchbox heads?

Depends on the speakers.

A pair for G12-65M Creambacks will be about the same as a single G12-65H Creamback.

But like for like, yes.
It isn't just volume though- it is spread.
Mismatching a pair of speakers can be a great way to get a bigger sound from 2 speakers.

This ^^ - with my Divided, I had a 2x12 Tone Tubby cab with their speakers and one was Alnico and the other was Ceramic. It was called H-Bomb combo and it worked a treat.

p90fool

theatreanchor said:

Not with my drummer. 

This is actually the most important thing. 
My drummer is relatively quiet, but whatever the venue, audience or sound engineer's opinion, I'm not going to turn down to the point where I can't hear myself. 

If they've booked a band with a real drum kit then they've also booked a band with real amps. 

jellybelly

Never had an issue when I gigged my MJW Bassman-y thing, that was 15w. Zero issues with my TMDR (but we don't have a drummer TBF). Often the issue was the reverse - couldn't turn up. Our drummer could cause plenty of racket too. 

As others have said, speakers make a big difference. That MJW had an Emi C Rex in it, very efficient. Did one gig with a Greenback 25w in it and got to the 'sweet spot' more easily, but knew I'd lost a lot of flexibility in the process!!

DiscoStu

This sounds more promising! There's no way I'm using a 4x12, but I could do a 2x12 and I like the idea of a V30 and a Creamback or 2 Creambacks.

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

The cab and the sensitivity of the speaker makes a HUGE difference

Added a bit there .

A 20W amp through a 2x12" with 100db speakers will be as loud as a 50W amp through a 1x12" with a 97dB speaker, and may well fill a room better. Of course, larger and more efficient cabs also tend to weigh more, so you may be taking two steps forward and one back. Neodymium speakers can help, although not *that* much - the cabinet still weighs more.

As already said, not all amps are equal either - there's probably at least a 2 to 1 difference in perceived volume between some different amps theoretically rated for the same power... really quite astonishingly so for things like Matchless.

Jetfire

ICBM said:

Danny1969 said:

The cab and the sensitivity of the speaker makes a HUGE difference

Added a bit there .

A 20W amp through a 2x12" with 100db speakers will be as loud as a 50W amp through a 1x12" with a 97dB speaker, and may well fill a room better. Of course, larger and more efficient cabs also tend to weigh more, so you may be taking two steps forward and one back. Neodymium speakers can help, although not *that* much - the cabinet still weighs more.

As already said, not all amps are equal either - there's probably at least a 2 to 1 difference in perceived volume between some different amps theoretically rated for the same power... really quite astonishingly so for things like Matchless.

I was going query about more speakers "volume", I guess if in doubt, get a. 2 x 12 and you're pretty much set id imagine? I wish there was a YouTube channel where people took 20 watt amps and cranked the nips off them to see how clean they really are

Reverend

I've got a 20w Marshall jcm800. Is loud enough to gig with my drummer, and it's unlikely your drummer is louder than him. 

gubble

My gigging amps are either a Marshall Origin 20 or DSL 20 both heads going into a Marshall 2x12 with some kind of celestion speaker that I cannot remember or if space is tight i'm using an Orange 1x12 with a V30 in it.

They're both more than loud enough to do a pub gig without a microphone in front of the cab - but I often will with a little bit going through the PA to balance the sound.

The origin will stay clean all the way up to gig volumes no problems espeically in full power mode

ecc83

" I wish there was a YouTube channel where people took 20 watt amps and cranked the nips off them to see how clean they really are "

A very interesting concept Jetfire but since virtually all YT tests of of amps.speakers, mics are a cluster***k of complete 'non-science' and tell you FA about the product, such vids would be of little use UNLESS conducted using very well defined parameters.

The main one would be a figure for the sound level at 1mtre in dBC. Then you need a standard test signal. Band limited, 3dB at 100Hz and 10kHz? Pink noise suggests itself or maybe a specified part of the riff from Money for Nothing?

A good quality sound level meter must be employed but also a basic smart pone app so that people at home can get a rough idea of the noise level.

It must also be remembered that the amplifier/speaker 'system' has/has been given a "voice". This is inescapable for speakers, some are 'shoutier' than others even though the dB/W/M figure is the same as a quieter other type. Amps also often have a built in 'curve' and so if that gives a hump at say 2kHz, smack in our most sensitive hearing area that amp will sound louder than a 'flatter' one even though they both (say) clip at 20 watts.

And! Any test must be done at a measured 230V incoming mains voltage! ALL valve amps, with one exception I know of, have unregulated power suppliers as do most 'older' transistor amps.

Dave.

DiscoStu

You seem to be talking me round... 

fretmeister

Somewhere on basschat there is a page full of maths about additional volume when adding speakers. Speaker nerd / engineer Bill Fitzmaurice went through it.

Apparently it can be 3db with the right set up - and much like the good people on here have mentioned, that means Vertical cabs for maximum effectiveness and horizontal spread.

I also second the good Rev's comment about the mini JCM800. It is mentally loud - as long as you pick the right speakers to go with it.

The Mini Rectifier is not as loud. I was disappointed in that from both a volume and a tone POV. I've owned several 2 and 3 channel full size rectos and the mini one just doesn't sound like the big ones. Lots of people like them for what they do sound like, but they are different. Not to mention that Guitarguitar are showing the Mini at £2000 now!!! (WTAF???) I got mine at launch when it was £999!!!

Nerine

I used to be of the opinion that 20w was too little. 

I’ve gigged with JTM45’s that have been turned up to cooking and had nowhere to go volume wise. I’ve always gigged with 50w amps and upwards though and been fine. 

Recently I took a Runt 20 head in a trade and thought I’d check it out at a couple of gigs and rehearsals. 

It surprised me to be fair. I think I was at just about the limit of headroom on my solo sounds but might have had a little bit more on tap available, but it seemed to be voiced in such a way that just meant it didn’t need to be hugely loud to be heard. 

It also changed my mindset a bit when considering lower wattage amps. I still prefer the sound of a bigger power section, and there are occasions where 20w won’t be enough headroom, but for the average band, I’d say it’ll be fine, especially if you aren’t playing metal or something. 

I’m mic’d most of the time, so I just don’t need shit loads of stage volume. Also, I care about the band balance as a whole so I’m not in the business of having so much cranked amp behind me that my volume in the PA is reduced. I’d rather be louder in the PA than behind me. 

I do the sound 99% of the time anyway, so I’m always forward in the mix a bit , but I blend it so the amp and PA are working together in harmony, and the resultant sound is often much bigger and fatter with more spread and more nicely balanced than just a beamy racket blowing past my legs that sounds good in about 10% of the room. 

TTBZ

I used to gig with a 50w Laney and a 2x12, very rarely did I get the master volume to the spot where the amp sounded it's best. That was just backline sound with no help from the PA. All my gigs in the past few years have been with a 20w 1x12 combo, or a 20w head through a 1x12 cab. More than enough volume for your standard pub/club gigs and if you're mic'd it's fine. And you can get the amp closer to it's sweet spot on the master. Did an O2 Academy 2 gig with the combo through a 4x12 and it was fine too. I don't ever play truly sparkly cleans though so if you need headroom it might not be enough. Crunchy cleans sound better anyway

Tried the PRS MT15 a while ago and it sounded huge, it must be more than 15w.

DiscoStu

I'm not playing full on metal in the band but I do at home. So for live use we're in the Alice in Chains / Audioslave / QotSA territory.

DiscoStu

Tbh it's been so long since I was in a gigging band that I've never experienced being mic'd up or DI before. Things have changed massively since the 90s...

ecc83

ICBM has oft commented that he preferred playing through a 'big' amp 50W+ rather than a smaller, 15W say one even if the 15 watter was more than loud enough.

I can understand this. A bigger amp will have higher transient headroom, the clipping on peaks might not be obvious with 15W but there will be a subtle 'feel' about it. Bigger transformers and a touch of NFB can all add to a more pleasant sound. An Escort 1300 will cruise at 70mph but it is a much nicer experience in a 4.2 jag!

Dave.