Vintage/old Archtop guitars - Hofner Et el worth it?

stylesforfree

So I have lusted after a nice sounding archtop for a while, even more so for an old 60's archtop. There's always a slew of old archtops and hollowbody guitars on the 2nd hand market (I regret not picking up a 60's Harmony Rocket back when you could get them for £200-£300).

Pickups arent essential as I could just pop a floating pup on but I would like the option to be able to plug it in.

Amongst the listings are always the usual suspects - Hofner, Framus, Ibanez, Teisco, Yamaha etc...all 60's and 70's stuff. Now I know Hofner guitars are generally well made and you can't go wrong with one as long as they're not rusty rotten old buckets of junk. There's a few listed now that I have my eye on, but I don't know what it is about them that appeals to me?

I have a Gretsch G3140, which is like an ES-275 except it has dearmond pickups and it's a centre block and acoustically it's not great - plus it's heavy.

I also have a Crafter FEG 780 which is a nicely made Korean archtop but again, acoustically, it leaves a lot to be desired. I have here, sitting in the corner of my room, some kind of old hofner but the neck is a bit buggered and the action is higher than a kite and the tuners are rusted but the body sounds deep and rich - it would probably cost about £500 to get it fixed up if the neck is salvageable at all.

Now, back to those old archtops and a few questions

Are they worth it? Granted, as with all vintage instruments, maintenance might be an issue going forward I guess but correct me if I am wrong.

Why are there always so many on the 2nd hand market - how do you know the junkers from the gems? Even if they're set-up and intonated with nice action?

Is it safe to put steel strings on some of these archtops from the early to mid 60's? I have read that some have tops that lack bracing which will eventually cause the wood to fold in and break.

What's a good price? The prices are all over the place - is there a definitive guide for today?

If I decide to go with an old archtop, which models are the ones to look out for and which guitar maker besides Hofner is worth trying?

What are the brands/guitar makers to steer clear of?

If I decide to forego then what are my options when buying 2nd hand - mid 2000's Korean made Epiphones? Gretsch? 

I am keen on the Godin 5th Avenue thinline with the lollar gold foils - but it is £2K and I don't know if I want to spend that much purely as a hobbyist.

WezV

They are generally pretty poorly made or often have age related issues from the glues used or the construction methods chosen.

They are often not cost effective to restore, beyond a labour of love.


I love them for what they are, but that definitely isn't practicality or quality

JohnS37

Hofners are usually pretty well made, but often not great to play - I wouldn’t buy one without playing it in person for a good half hour at least.  Harmonys can be good, Framus a bit like Hofner with the same caveats.  Some of the lesser brands can be very poorly constructed.  Cheap isn’t necessarily a bargain!  Tread carefully and be sure to test drive first.

SteveRobinson

What @WezV says. When I fixed guitars I had a "no Höfner, no Framus" policy. 

Okay, I did the odd one if I was in the mood for it.

MikeP

If it were me I'd try to ID the instrument you have and see if there are some YouTube clips and if I liked them I'd check current prices to see if it would be worth putting the money into it. 

munckee

I’ve got an early 60s Kay speed demon and it’s great to play and funky/cool. I play it the most unplugged as much as plugged in. 

ICBM

Most Höfner archtops sound terrible unless fitted with heavy flatwound strings. (There are exceptions but they’re rare.) They also commonly have issues with the neck joint, often involving the horizontal glue join just below the top of the body coming apart - many have already been repaired badly, meaning that the neck is no longer at the proper angle and the bridge then gets butchered to make the guitar playable. Most have clunky baseball bat necks even after the introduction of truss rods in (IIRC) 1959. Of course, these are now fashionable as “nice fat necks”, which I don’t understand personally because they always remind me of Höfners .

They’re much better as electrics so you can put lighter strings on and ignore the acoustic tone, frankly - and even then have the same issues plus other ones with the pickups and pots.

Just my opinion obviously, but I’ve owned several, worked on dozens, and wouldn’t be in a hurry to ever buy another apart from possibly a 60s Verithin, which are actually quite a bit more playable.

But they do look really cool.

guitars4you

I've told this story before

But an old customer, going back to the days when my grandad owned/ran the shop - So late 50's - Purchased a Golden Hofner - Top of the range model - He gigged 2/3 nights a week in a dance band - This was his pride and joy - I heard so much about this guitar but never actually saw it in the flesh - For him and the band, the Carpenters Good Bye To Love, was the hi-light of the night and he could rip it up - For over 50 years this was his gigging guitar

About 3/4 years ago he told me he had an issue with the jack socket so would I have a look at it - Of course I was glad to do so - Easy fix as just a bit tarnished - But boy was I surprised or not - This guitar was an absolute dog to play - As I said take into account how many hours and gigs he'd played on it in a competent dance band - It was that bad IMO that I could not even play 'whistle while you work' on it - It was a pure bitch to play - Valuable yes but totally pointless and useless as a commodity IMO

rossi

I always thought Hofners and Framus clunky back in the day .There was very  good reason why  we all bought American guitars as  soon as we could  .When I started playing flat wound heavy guage were about all we could get from memory 

Choivert

I used to have an old 30/40s rex Aragon branded guitar which was made by Harmony for gretsch and that was lovely. I put a small jazz slim pickup in it and it was great. 

Funkfingers

WezV said:

They are generally pretty poorly made or often have age related issues from the glues used or the construction methods chosen.

They are often not cost effective to restore, beyond a labour of love.

Steamed and pressed plywood is the norm. Only the posh models receive solid wood and the attentions of a chisel to carve it. 

Some of the electronical gubbins is extremely primitive. Care must be taken when unscrewing the control panel. Otherwise, the ply flakes away, leaving nothing for the tiny fastening screws to bite.

SteveRobinson said:

When I fixed guitars I had a "no Höfner, no Framus" policy. Okay, I did the odd one if I was in the mood for it.

My only experience of "fixing" a Höfner was as a favour for a friend who also happened to be my work supervisor. He had inherited a wreck from a recently deceased uncle. For sentimental reasons, he wanted the guitar to work properly again.

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

Steamed and pressed plywood is the norm. Only the posh models receive solid wood and the attentions of a chisel to carve it.

Only the Golden Höfner and most pre-1960 Committees have a solid top. All the other models are all ply.

Funkfingers said:

Some of the electronical gubbins is extremely primitive. Care must be taken when unscrewing the control panel. Otherwise, the ply flakes away, leaving nothing for the tiny fastening screws to bite.

It's not too difficult to glue new bits of ply under the top at the ends of the hole, and use longer screws. I have done a lot of those...

There are also the other ones with four controls in a diamond pattern, where the panel is held on by the pot mounting plate being inserted at an angle, rotated, then the outer plate fitted over the top and the pot nuts hold it all together with no visible means of support! Actually quite clever and secure once in place, but a real challenge if you've never seen how it's done before.

Funkfingers said:

My only experience of "fixing" a Höfner was as a favour for a friend who also happened to be my work supervisor. He had inherited a wreck from a recently deceased uncle. For sentimental reasons, he wanted the guitar to work properly again.

Again?

Roland

ICBM said:

Funkfingers said:

Steamed and pressed plywood is the norm. Only the posh models receive solid wood and the attentions of a chisel to carve it.

Only the Golden Höfner and most pre-1960 Committees have a solid top. All the other models are all ply.

My Höfner President has a solid spruce top. It’s an early model, baseball bat neck with no truss rod, which makes it unplayable nowadays.

guitars4you

I kind of equate an early 60's Hofner to an early 60's Morris Minor - Lots of character - A good talking point - You might own one to go to the country pub on a nice Sunday lunch time but you know you can buy a better small newer car today as a day to day run around - I could own/gig a Peavey Rockingham but I know I could not gig an Hofner arch top

DavidR

I did up a Horner Senator once. Good clean and got it refretted. Great fun. Gave it to a friend of my daughter’s in the end and bought an Ibanez which wasn’t quite so much fun. The only thing with the Hofner, which was from about 1965 as I recall, was the potentiometers were rusty even though the electrics were otherwise OK. Looked really cool after I cleaned it and put it back together. Lovely varnish. 

TheModiesel

This thread is a great antidote to the intrusive thoughts I often get when seeing affordable hofner archtops as they do look quite lovely 

TheMarlin

A modern Eastwood replica of an older guitar will be vastly superior to play.  Thats where I would look. 

I’m honestly a huge fan of Airline/Eastwood/Supro.  They made interesting replica vintage guitars that sound excellent and play even better. 

One of my absolute favourite guitars in my collection is this (one of 20 made in black)
https://eastwoodguitars.com/products/sidejack-20th-ltd

The neck has a bit of a chunk, but only marginally more than the average, and the fretboard feels slightly wider, like an Ibanez Wizard.   That combo with the awesome pickups, trem and overall everything else, and it’s a keeper for life.  Absolutely love this guitar. 

They also do hollow models. The centre-block Airline H78 is another excellent guitar, the Dearmond inspired pickups are stonking!  playing my one right now. 

If I were you, that’s where I would spend the money.  It will play better than anything vintage, and be better built.  I’ve played a lot of vintage guitars, they can be a chore. Modern guitars have so much better aesthetics. 

For hollow body, I also recommend the Gretsch G5410 Rat Rod.  It’s the best of the Electromatic range. Every bit as good as a Gretsch Anniversary (which is my favourite model of Pro Line Gretsch). again, a bargain on the used market. 

OilCityPickups

If you are buying an electric Hofner ... bargain on a full rewind of all pickups .... as an indicator of how regularly these pickups break down ... I have nine hofner humbuckers in the workshop at the moment to be rewound ... and one instrument restorer sends me batches of 20-30 Hofner bobbins to rewind at a time! If you have one dead coil in a humbucker the very act of disturbing the pickup to rewind the bad coil will almost always kill the other one. But once rewound these will go on pretty much forever and they do sound really nice. 

My first hollow body was a 1965/66 Hofner President Florentine which I bought (with defective pickups when I was 19 ... it had a beefy but quite comfortable neck and a truss rod 
Pretty much exactly like this 
My oldest mate who I sold it to still has it ... and gigs it regularly. 

Unlike earlier models the truss rod equipped ones are still very playable if the neck joints have stood up to the test of time.

Personally I would always want to try one of these for a good long time to make sure everything is okay, but they are not all as bad as some would make out ... but be careful.  

Framus are not as good as Hofner ... at least not the ones I've tried. 


 

guitars4you

@OilCityPickups ; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  - they can be 're-worked' to play better inc a good re-fret - The issue then is the worthwhile cost of such a project - I recall the days when these could be found for £30-100 in a second hand junk shop, when many guitar shops didn't want them 

But spending £600-1000 on many examples, then a £300-500 cost for re-fit neck, re-fret and a electric tidy up is just not a cost effective project - Fine if you can DIY

stylesforfree

guitars4you said:

@OilCityPickups ;;; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  - they can be 're-worked' to play better inc a good re-fret - The issue then is the worthwhile cost of such a project - I recall the days when these could be found for £30-100 in a second hand junk shop, when many guitar shops didn't want them 

But spending £600-1000 on many examples, then a £300-500 cost for re-fit neck, re-fret and a electric tidy up is just not a cost effective project - Fine if you can DIY

OilCityPickups said:

If you are buying an electric Hofner ... bargain on a full rewind of all pickups .... as an indicator of how regularly these pickups break down ... I have nine hofner humbuckers in the workshop at the moment to be rewound ... and one instrument restorer sends me batches of 20-30 Hofner bobbins to rewind at a time! If you have one dead coil in a humbucker the very act of disturbing the pickup to rewind the bad coil will almost always kill the other one. But once rewound these will go on pretty much forever and they do sound really nice. 

My first hollow body was a 1965/66 Hofner President Florentine which I bought (with defective pickups when I was 19 ... it had a beefy but quite comfortable neck and a truss rod 
Pretty much exactly like this 
My oldest mate who I sold it to still has it ... and gigs it regularly. 

Unlike earlier models the truss rod equipped ones are still very playable if the neck joints have stood up to the test of time.

Personally I would always want to try one of these for a good long time to make sure everything is okay, but they are not all as bad as some would make out ... but be careful.  

Framus are not as good as Hofner ... at least not the ones I've tried. 


 

So stick late 80'to mid to late 90's Japanese guitars and early to mid 2000's Korean guitars from the likes of Gretsch, Epiphone, Ibanez, Guild and Dearmond?

How do we all feel about mid to late 70's Hofners? Particularly the 457 series? If they're in good playable condition with decent frets would it be worth picking one up for £600?

OilCityPickups

stylesforfree said:

guitars4you said:

@OilCityPickups ;; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  - they can be 're-worked' to play better inc a good re-fret - The issue then is the worthwhile cost of such a project - I recall the days when these could be found for £30-100 in a second hand junk shop, when many guitar shops didn't want them 

But spending £600-1000 on many examples, then a £300-500 cost for re-fit neck, re-fret and a electric tidy up is just not a cost effective project - Fine if you can DIY

So stick to mid to late 90's Japanese guitars and early to mid 2000's Korean guitars from the likes of Gretsch, Guild and Dearmond?

I would ... there are some nice instruments in that category 

Never tried a 457 ... but I'm told they were really nice