MFX design rant - why can't manufacturers get the basics right for gigging?

siraxeman

So can we just all agree then that the gt100 is teh bestest ever? (Cos it's the wun I has gotz )

Danny1969

It's huge but the Vox Tonelab SE is perfect for gigging

No drop down menue's ..... it's all rotary knobs

Built like a tank that's been designed to be run over by a bigger tank ..... all metal enclosure and metal stomps

2 x expression pedals for Wah and Volume

Great tuner

A \ B channel stomp 

Tap Tempo and control stomps

And here's the most important bit, it actually sounds good, in fact it sounds great. I don't understand why the Boss GT drives are so bad. Why don't they just copy one of the pedals all you guys rave about like the naughty monkey or Rat and stick that circuit in rather than all their digital shit

Voxman

Danny1969 said:

It's huge but the Vox Tonelab SE is perfect for gigging

No drop down menue's ..... it's all rotary knobs

Built like a tank that's been designed to be run over by a bigger tank ..... all metal enclosure and metal stomps

2 x expression pedals for Wah and Volume

Great tuner

A \ B channel stomp 

Tap Tempo and control stomps

And here's the most important bit, it actually sounds good, in fact it sounds great. I don't understand why the Boss GT drives are so bad. Why don't they just copy one of the pedals all you guys rave about like the naughty monkey or Rat and stick that circuit in rather than all their digital shit

The TLLE is the best compromise I've found.  Same modelling and essentially the same features as the TLSE except it doesn't have the A/B channel option and only a single foot pedal. But its big plus is that its a lot more compact and lighter than the TLSE plus it has a second Line 2 option with an adjustable EQ that the TLSE doesn't have.  

The A/B option in the TLSE is really good though because it lets you switch between different amp/cab models with a single switch so you can go from say a Blackface through a 2x12 to a Marshall JCM900 with 4x12 V30's - a very useful feature for gigging. With the TLLE I have to set up separate patches.  

Drew_TNBD

See, for me... I don't want *any* superfluous bullshit in a multi-fx. I don't want amp modelling *at all* if I can get away with it.

monquixote

Drew_fx said:

See, for me... I don't want *any* superfluous bullshit in a multi-fx. I don't want amp modelling *at all* if I can get away with it.

Agreed I actually think that's why MFX aren't better than they are because all the companies are so focussed on modelling which again is mostly a bedroom user feature.  

ThePrettyDamned

Drew_fx said:

See, for me... I don't want *any* superfluous bullshit in a multi-fx. I don't want amp modelling *at all* if I can get away with it.

It's useful as a backup thing, but to be honest, you wouldn't need loads - just one decent clean model that you can put virtual effects in front of, just in case. 

Or maybe two versions, one with amp modelling and one without. 

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

See, for me... I don't want *any* superfluous bullshit in a multi-fx. I don't want amp modelling *at all* if I can get away with it.

That's what I liked about the ME-50…

But they bolloxed it with that stupid manual mode.

And that they seem to break more than other Boss units.

Drew_TNBD

I've got an ME-10 somewhere in a cupboard. But it's totally broken. Those ME-X units look cool.

EricTheWeary

ThePrettyDamned said:

Drew_fx said:

See, for me... I don't want *any* superfluous bullshit in a multi-fx. I don't want amp modelling *at all* if I can get away with it.

It's useful as a backup thing, but to be honest, you wouldn't need loads - just one decent clean model that you can put virtual effects in front of, just in case. 

Or maybe two versions, one with amp modelling and one without. 

when I had my M9 and prodded around on the Line 6 forum it was a common request to have an amp sim for the series for emergency situations. I still like the idea of a MFX that is blank hardware - you download what you want from an online library, so one person has amp sims, one has complicated multi fx, one has 17 different phaser settings,etc. You then need some knobs for on the fly adjustment for gigging. Given that the digitech istomp and tc toneprints have been around for a few years ( and that some synths are based on a similar idea) I suspect some kind of version of this is doable now. Browse the sounds with your tablet and a cup of tea, design your perfect effects/ sim set up, send to the blank pedal ( they could make a small one and a big one). Bobs yer etc. At present all or most of the software is in the MFX which is on the floor ( or in a rack) and you have to scroll past all the stuff you don't want whilst kneeling down.

monquixote

EricTheWeary said:

when I had my M9 and prodded around on the Line 6 forum it was a common request to have an amp sim for the series for emergency situations. I still like the idea of a MFX that is blank hardware - you download what you want from an online library, so one person has amp sims, one has complicated multi fx, one has 17 different phaser settings,etc. You then need some knobs for on the fly adjustment for gigging. Given that the digitech istomp and tc toneprints have been around for a few years ( and that some synths are based on a similar idea) I suspect some kind of version of this is doable now. Browse the sounds with your tablet and a cup of tea, design your perfect effects/ sim set up, send to the blank pedal ( they could make a small one and a big one). Bobs yer etc. At present all or most of the software is in the MFX which is on the floor ( or in a rack) and you have to scroll past all the stuff you don't want whilst kneeling down.

That's essentially what something like the H9 is. 

There was a cross platform DSP one anyone could develop for, but it failed. As did the Line6 tone core stuff.

EricTheWeary

Wasn't really familiar with the H9 but read a review and it certainly is the closest to what I'm jabbering on about. As far as I can see you have to scroll up through the presets with the footswitches, rather than a stomp box format but then that keeps it more compact.

monquixote

The Line6 Tonecore modules are even more interesting as you can download the SDK and upload your own algorithms into them (presuming you know how to program a DSP). I think you are even allowed to sell the fruits of your labours.

As far as I'm aware no one really bothered. 

Voxman

monquixote said:

Drew_fx said:

See, for me... I don't want *any* superfluous bullshit in a multi-fx. I don't want amp modelling *at all* if I can get away with it.

  Agreed I actually think that's why MFX aren't better than they are because all the companies are so focussed on modelling which again is mostly a bedroom user feature.  

Sorry, but I SOOO disagree with that. If you're in a covers band modelling can be a God-send with access to tonal versatility that you just can't get from a single straight amp. Its great to be able to switch from a vox ac30 to a fender bassman or marshall at the press of a footswitch.

monquixote

Voxman said:

monquixote said:

Drew_fx said:

See, for me... I don't want *any* superfluous bullshit in a multi-fx. I don't want amp modelling *at all* if I can get away with it.

  Agreed I actually think that's why MFX aren't better than they are because all the companies are so focussed on modelling which again is mostly a bedroom user feature.  

Sorry, but I SOOO disagree with that. If you're in a covers band modelling can be a God-send with access to tonal versatility that you just can't get from a single straight amp. Its great to be able to switch from a vox ac30 to a fender bassman or marshall at the press of a footswitch.

I appreciate it's horses for courses etc, but I've never felt the need for switching from a Vox clean to a, Bassman Clean, to a clean twin etc. 

I gigged for a long time with a POD2, but I only ever used the Twin Model and the JCM800 model.

Clarky

I think the biggest prob is not having enough DSP power.. so you end up with gaps / dropouts when changing presets etc..

my 2120 has seamless preset changing because it has more than enough DSP power.. that said, it's not a modeller, so all the DSP resources have to handle are the digital fx.. a simpler prob to solve I guess..

Voxman

The only mfx I've heard of with inadequate dsp power is the Line 6 HD500. Even then I think its fine for most people and its only a problem where a lot of fx are being used.

Clarky

I think it'd be cool if a unit could have something like 8 "amp slots" that you can fill with your user defined fave amps [even if it's the same amp more than once with different settings]..

these 'slots' are loaded as soon as the unit powers up.. they would have dedicated DSP resource and would always be processing the signal even if not "in use".. then when you change preset, if you call up one of these amps there would be no drop-out..

additionally, there would be enough DSP power required for the other fx so that when you change preset, delay / reverb tails are able to spill-over.. essentially [like in the 2120], there is enough DSP to handle the reverb and delay you are currently using, and plenty of power remaining to load the reverb and delay of the next preset too so that the new one's take over and the old one's tails are able to decay naturally..

monquixote

Clarky said:

I think it'd be cool if a unit could have something like 8 "amp slots" that you can fill with your user defined fave amps [even if it's the same amp more than once with different settings]..

these 'slots' are loaded as soon as the unit powers up.. they would have dedicated DSP resource and would always be processing the signal even if not "in use".. then when you change preset, if you call up one of these amps there would be no drop-out..

additionally, there would be enough DSP power required for the other fx so that when you change preset, delay / reverb tails are able to spill-over.. essentially [like in the 2120], there is enough DSP to handle the reverb and delay you are currently using, and plenty of power remaining to load the reverb and delay of the next preset too so that the new one's take over and the old one's tails are able to decay naturally..

That's one thing that's nice about the GT-100 in a patch you can define 2 amps in 2 chains and either run them in stereo, mixed or have one in reserve to be switched on a pedal. You then get all your delays and reverbs preserved when you switch. 

Clarky

Voxman said:

The only mfx I've heard of with inadequate dsp power is the Line 6 HD500. Even then I think its fine for most people and its only a problem where a lot of fx are being used.

they almost all have inadequte power, which is why there are drop-outs / tail cuts when changing preset.. most have enough power to run all fx, but not enough to seamlessly handle the preset transitions.. the only unit I've ever seen that does this well is the 2120 [and it's previous versions: 2112 and 2101]..

an Axe-FX has limits too.. this is more exposed because it has an fx grid rather than a chain.. this means that you can over populate the grid and run out of CPU.. personally, I think that if more cpu were available to cope with spillover, folks would not need to build such complex presets [multi-function / multi-tone presets] and as such, preset designs could be far simpler and less likely to hit the cpu limit..

the VG-99 will never run out of cpu because it's designed to be able to have absolutely all fx on.. but these fx are in a chain and are therefore not even close to the sort of thing you can do with the Axe.. however.. spillover is not good.. it only works if the next preset contains the same reverb / delay, in the same location in the chain.. which is a bit crap..

StefB

Danny1969 said:

It's huge but the Vox Tonelab SE is perfect for gigging

Save for the fact that you can't run wah at the same time as an OD model or compressor - has to be one or the other.  A massive oversight with the Tonelab stuff if my opinion, something I found out when I owned a Korg AX-3000G (based on the same chassis) and is what put me off ever buying a Tonelab SE.

They look ideal and sound fab otherwise...