Oh Bugger.... Need advice

paulmapp8306

HAd a REALLY bad moment today.  Putting Xmas decs back in the loft - and a Chrtistmas Clock fell out of its box ---- straight through the body of my Avalon Accoustic......

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u65/paulmapp8306/P1030179.jpg

Im 99.9% sure thats not repairable so its going to be an insurance job.

No idea what a replacement price would e.  The Avalons have been out of production for a while, and this one was hand pickled by the guys at Lowden (when they were the same company).  I believe I paid £600 or maybe £650 for the original (non hand picked) back in 2003.  The origials top dropped after a couple of years - which is when the Lowden guys picked this out for me and retrofitted the elecrtics as the best guitar they had didnt have any. 

So - Solid Sruce top, Solid Rosewood sides, Dreadnaught with Electrics (Fishman Prefix Plus).  What would be of equivilant build/qualit/spec now.  Obviously this is from a price perspective - Im going to have to try several to actually find its replacement, but the insurance company is going to want a rough cost.  Its a new for old policy so its just finding what something like this would cost new now.

ICBM

Definitely repairable, and might even end up nearly invisible, but you'll need someone who really knows what they're doing.

At least if it's solid… it looks worryingly like it might be ply, in which case it's a whole different problem. May just be a trick of the photo - can you take a closer-up picture of the hole?

VimFuego

TBH (and I'm sure our resident acoustic luthiery types will correct me) but it doesn't look that horrendous, I'm sure a suitable repair would be very effective.

paulmapp8306

Thinking back - maybe the back/sides were ply.  I was second thinking that just after I posted, and the more I think back the more Im thinking they are ply.  Im guessing ply would be much more of an issue re-repair

    

Strat_a_tat_tat

My guess is that damage won't affect how the guitar sounds.

 

However, it's going to affect its second hand value... so may be worth making a claim

paulmapp8306

VERY difficult to price this up for insurance.  AS I say its new for old - and as the make model cant be got new they need an equivalent guitar for pricing.

Using an inflation calculator - £600 back in 2003 is worth £922 now,  On a used front - found 2 to date.  One went for 620 Euros in Cork (£485) back in 2009, while the other went earlier this year in the US for $1299 (£847).  

Im guessing from those 3 sources, its fair to offer the insurance company the value of £920-£950 as the cost of an equivalent guitar today.  There is a £50 XS - but would give me £900 or so to find a replacement. The main issue is I would probably need to identify a currently available guitar as similar spec/quality for a price comparison.  Quite frankly I wouldnt have a clue on that front.

I now what Id like - but tastes and expectations change, and neither a Martin 00018 (which ist even close to the specs of the Avalone) - or a Taylor 312/314ce  which is probably a little highers spec than the Avalone - are suitable.  Both are more than the suggested equivalent£920 value (though if they did settle at that, I could probably get the Taylor used for that).  

Anyone any ideas of what is a similar spec'd guitar available today? Possibly something like a Faith Hi-Gloss?  OK its solid woods rather than laminated back/sides but thats not everything.  Dont know what their sizes compare to (neptunes, venus, saturn etc)  Taylors with laminated back/sides are more than the Faiths for instance.  The Hi-Gloss is the same woods (the naked and naturals are mahogony) which is why Im thinking that. Price for one of those is around  £750 so im guessing its in the right ballpark.  Faith guitars seem to get the same kind of reviews that Avalons got in their day - that is the best guitars at their price point and on par with some more expensive. 

Of course, if a repair is cost effective - that usually means if its less than half the cost of replacement - then they would insist on a repair.  However, that repair would need to be un-noticeable OR not impact on any resale value.  Given its probably Ply not solid, im guessing thats not an option? A repair would still impact any resale value - sop it would need to be invisible, or pretty close to that.

 

John_P

Just a thought and I might be way out of touch with insurance claims but "new for old"   If Avalon aren't availalbe then isn't the equivalent new guitar a Lowden?    I'd think about pushing them to buy you a new Lowden with similar spec to your damaged guitar.

paulmapp8306

Ha - dont think they'd play there.  A similar spec'd Lowden is £3.5k plus.  Avalone, at the time I got mine - were Lowdens off shore, budget badge.  Much like Fenders Squire, or Gibsons Epiphone.

I believe they are now a separate manufacturer - being built by Ex Lowden Luthiers.  Ill need to check that.  Not sure how much insurance companies know - but I suspect there not gullible enough to cough up for a Lowden or modern Avalone.

* edit *

Quick look shows Avalones CHEEPEST rosewood/spruce guitar at £2850.  No Electrics, and hand built to order.

As I say - Not sure I could push then for an Avalone, as what the guitars actually are have changed in the last 12 years. Added to that, anything over £2k value needs to be individually listed on the policy, and my Avalone isnt (some of my guitars are) - which further goes against pushing for that.

I guess I COULD say that mine wasnt that much when new, but Avalone dont do off the peg guitars any more - hence the higher cost, then push for something else off the peg - like the Taylor 412 for instance, that comes in under the £2k ceiling.  My Guitar has the same head-stock logo so ......

Still think that would be pissing in the wind though.

strtdv

Avalon at the time were ex Lowden employees, then there was the silver series and gold series which were made in the far East, then the company got into financial difficulty and I think the Avalon company that is currently making what effectively amount to nice Lowden copies is a different company then what it used to be. There effectively isn't a production guitar that is the same spec as yours, a Taylor 2 series would probably be comparable price, build and spec wise.

Antique_Guitars

Repairable for sure, thats actually pretty minor damage really. It will however be difficult to get the repair to match the rest of the guitar aesthetically though. A really decent luthier taking a lot of time could probably get it to match pretty close.

The other thing you could do is turn it into a sound port instead which could actually be quite interesting.

richardhomer

Gaffer tape? :-S

WezV

Antique_Guitars said:

Repairable for sure, thats actually pretty minor damage really. It will however be difficult to get the repair to match the rest of the guitar aesthetically though. A really decent luthier taking a lot of time could probably get it to match pretty close.

The other thing you could do is turn it into a sound port instead which could actually be quite interesting.

I think thats a really good idea for a repair, but I guess less so from a resale value point of view. the port could easily be bound in the same scheme as the body to make it look  like it belongs and hide any laminations.  fully repairing and (mostly) hiding it is not out of the question as its a relatively  straight grained peice of rosewood

 

do the insurance company let you keep the broken item when they have replaced new for old?

hobbio

Check your policy. If the item claimed for is no longer available insurers usually cap their outlay to the last official price at which it was sold. They also reserve the right to repair damaged items rather than replace, although in your case it's reasonable not to accept a repair offer.

What I'm saying is you'll probably do well to get £650 minus your excess. Do you still have the original purchase receipt? If the last official purchase price was higher it might be worth misplacing it...

hobbio

The other option would be a cash in lieu of repair settlement if your insurers will play ball (it's a more common option on motor policies). This means they'll pay you a reduced amount, and you get the guitar repaired with that. This can often work out to your advantage if you can get it repaired cheaply enough, as you're likely to have money left over to buy more gear with.

I'd go with the sound port repair option personally, depending on cost. That would look cool as hell.

hobbio

WezV said:

do the insurance company let you keep the broken item when they have replaced new for old?

Depends on the company and what the item is. If they have a company that buys their scrap items then they'll probably keep it but that's not too likely with a guitar. Which means that the cash in lieu stuff I posted is worthless info cos you'll end up with a payout and the guitar anyway

RowlandwithaW

It does look repairable.

If you want a replacement, I'd go to your local friendly guitar shop and ask their help explain the situation, and sort the deal out with them, so the insurance company is given the info from the shop and you. "This damaged guitar is no longer available, and an equivalent today including an allowance would be .........."  

Bidley

I'm surprised at people saying this is easily repairable. Not that I doubt anyone, just can't get my head around how you'd go about repairing that. Is it a case of cleaning up the hole and fitting another piece of wood into it?

WezV

 

Bidley said:

I'm surprised at people saying this is easily repairable. Not that I doubt anyone, just can't get my head around how you'd go about repairing that. Is it a case of cleaning up the hole and fitting another piece of wood into it?

thats the simplest way, and it will be structurally sound,  but hard to make invisible

Bidley

The more I actually think about it, the more sense it makes (and the more silly I feel!).

All the best with the guitar, hope you find a resolution!

WezV

Bidley said:

The more I actually think about it, the more sense it makes (and the more silly I feel!).

nah, its not straightforward by any means.   not a job for someone who hasn't practiced on similar before.  but it is possible

a couple of similar repairs, not the same by any means - but it gives an idea about how it could be done

small hole refilled with existing chips

http://mrglyn.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/repairing-hole-in-acoustic-side.html

large hole filled with new piece of wood

http://massresonator.com/2013/02/repair-shop-spot-damaged-nbn-guitar/

adding a soundport

http://www.acousticguitarconstructionforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=596

ICBM

It's not straightforward - especially if it's ply - but it is doable. If you think about it, why shouldn't it be? All the wood is still there and it's simply been forced out of its original position. "All" (!) you need to do is reverse that :-). If it's solid wood it will generally be easier to get the splinters to go back into place - ply is harder because the cross-grain layer shatters and gets pushed past other pieces so it won't easily go back, but it can sometimes be easier than it looks at first.

Then saturate the broken area with glue, clamp it flat - this is tricky, given that one side of it is inside the guitar, but it can be done (not just with that clever machinehead trick!), and smooth and refinish the area.

NB, this is beyond my personal skills, I'm just reporting how proper luthiers I've worked with would approach it.

Don't make it into a 'soundport', that's really just going to look like a bodge. (In my opinion.) If you can't make a nearly invisible proper repair I'd be inclined to have an obviously contrasting patch or an inlay of some sort.