DIY top replacement (started off intending to be a neck reset) * Now finished and playable again :)

DartmoorHedgehog

I decided to have a go at resetting the neck of my Hondo 12 string before I give up on it and buy something else.  It's not worth enough to pay somebody else to do it, but it sounds good enough for the odd time I need it so if I can sort it out myself then I'll keep it.  The only neck reset I've done before was on a ukulele, which went really well, but I've not had the balls to attack a proper guitar before.

So...

Had a bit of time last night and got the fretboard off cleanly using a hot knife.  At this point on the ukulele I could get steam into the neck joint, but here it's obviously covered by the top.  If I take the truss rod out presumably I should be able to see part of the neck joint down the hole...  but the truss rod feels pretty firmly attached.  Do I need to slacken the truss rod off then just lever it out, or will it be attached somehow at one end or other?  Should I drill holes in the top to get at the joint?

I'm quite prepared to write this guitar off if I screw it up because I've had it for ages and it didn't cost me much, but if I can make it nicely playable again it'll be a bonus.

WezV

sometimes those rods are glued in - or at least the aluminium channel the rod sits in  is glued in

 

do you have a picture of the internal heel block.  as this neck has no tenon I imagine it will either be bolted or doweled in place.  if its botled you should see evidence inside. 

 

 

DartmoorHedgehog

Thanks @WezV.  I can post a picture of the inside this evening, but I'm pretty sure it's just a smooth block without any visible attachment methods.  I was just expecting the heel of the neck to be glued into a tapered pocket in the block - am I being too optimistic?

Do I need to get the truss rod out to remove the neck or should I leave it alone and attack the joint from some other angle? (and if so should I slacken it first?)

I think getting the neck off is going to be the only way to sort this out.  I thought about shaving the bridge down but it would have to be almost flush with the top to make it nice to play and the saddle is an adjustable type in a metal carrier, so I couldn't make it that low.  

WezV

it depends - the pics make it look like there isn't a neck pocket at all and its just but jointed, in which case you shoudl find some dowels in there.

 

but its thats the case you would also expect to see some seperation of the heel away from the body. Can you take a picture of that too, back of the body by the heel?

 

Is the neck straight?   depending on the neck join  it may be best to treat this as one that cannot be rese,t and look at putting a tapered shim undereneath the fretboard you have already removed instead .... really depends on that neck join - but you do have options!!

DartmoorHedgehog

WezV said:

but its thats the case you would also expect to see some seperation of the heel away from the body. Can you take a picture of that too, back of the body by the heel?

The varnish hasn't cracked around the heel.  I've scored it now to avoid it flaking in anticipation of the neck coming off.  I think the reason the neck angle is wrong now is that the body has deformed (top has sunk in front of the neck).  The bridge had rotated a fair bit as well, but I sorted that out with a bridge doctor years ago and it's stayed pretty straight at that end.  None of the top braces are loose so I (perhaps wrongly) thought it would be easier to reset the neck than try to address any problem with the body.

WezV said:

Is the neck straight?   depending on the neck join  it may be best to treat this as one that cannot be rese,t and look at putting a tapered shim undereneath the fretboard you have already removed instead .... really depends on that neck join - but you do have options!!

Yes the neck is straight, with just a tiny bit of relief.  Putting a shim under the fretboard is a cunning plan - although I'm not sure how I'd make a long wedge like that accurately with my fairly limited woodworking tools (draw a line, cut close with a saw then finish with a plain or sanding block?)

DartmoorHedgehog

I should make it clear that I'm not insisting on doing the "correct" repair here, just seeing if I can get a few more years out of this low-value-but-sounds-fine guitar before it's time to look for a new one.  I have the means to replace it, I just hate to give up on stuff before I've tried everything (short of throwing money at it)

DartmoorHedgehog

Here's the best I can do at getting a picture of the heel block.  Can't see any sign of bolts.  Outside is scored now as I said, but I'll post a pic of that anyway.  I don't reckon the heel joint has moved (the varnish wasn't cracked) - I was going to move it on purpose thinking that would be easier than trying to straighten out the body.

WezV

i think you will be looking at a join like this

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h66/espiti/D-60SW/Necksawed-off.jpg

http://forums.washburn.com/index.php?topic=15320.0

WezV

you know, whilst its in this state i reckon you should try a re-top.  its actually pretty easy to do from the stage you are already at

DartmoorHedgehog

WezV said:

i think you will be looking at a join like this

Eek, so I'd need to saw the neck off rather than undo the joint?

WezV said:

you know, whilst its in this state i reckon you should try a re-top.  its actually pretty easy to do from the stage you are already at

Ah, OK.  You mean leave the neck in place and remove the top instead, replacing it with a better one?  Sounds like a bit of a can of worms

Actually, now the strings have been off a couple of days the top is nothing like as sunken as it was.  If I put the fretboard back on and lie a straight edge along the frets it hits the bridge a couple of mm below the top (of the bridge). Still a bit low by the time the saddle is on, but if it would stay like that under tension I could get away with just shaving the bridge a bit.  I've been feeling around the inside and one of the diagonal braces between the sound hole and the heel area is a bit suspect - must have missed that when I was checking before, but all others are solid.  I'll get some glue under it and clamp it and see if that increases rigidity enough before I do anything more radical.

Thanks for the tips though, much appreciated  I'll post more after I've sorted that brace out and checked all the others again.

WezV

you might still be able to steam it loose rather than saw off

but a new top will also give you a much better guitar at the end of it all.   my first was a really cheap classical  i rebraced for steel strings - i didnt bother with  soundhole decoration or body binding.  this cuts out a lot of difficult processes so all you need to do it cut a soundhole, glue on some pre-made bracing and trim the top to fit.  I mocked up my first go bar deck with bamboo and a table for doing all the difficult clamping

I changed it from a  nasty classical  to  an awesome little parlour guitar with solid spruce top - sounded ace.   didn't add any reinforcement to the neck though and it eventually gave in from  the extra tension

DartmoorHedgehog

Thanks again @WezV.  That actually sounds tempting...  

I've re-glued that loose brace today and checked all the others and skimmed a couple of mm off the bridge.  The top is now pretty flat, apart from a slight hump around the bridge, so when the clamps come off I'll put the fretboard and strings back on and see if it'll survive under tension.  If it doesn't I may go for the retop.

Presumably I could reuse some of the bracing from the old top, so all I'd need is a suitable piece of wood for the top.  If I did that I'd be tempted to add some extra lengthways braces (like on an archtop) to try to give it some more rigidity - is that a good idea or would it deaden it too much?

I took the back off the ukulele using steam and a knife, which wasn't too hard because it was obviously small and had no kerfing.  I'd guess this guitar will put up more of a fight.

DartmoorHedgehog

Right, it's been strung up to pitch for a couple of days and hasn't stayed completely flat.  But it's better than it was before I fixed that brace, so if it's stable I'll be tempted to leave it as it is for the short term and see if it gets worse.

But the idea of making a new top in the future has got me interested...

Bits of spruce sold as guitar top blanks seem to be quite expensive - something like £50 in my quick look around.  Is that normal, or am I looking in the wrong places?

If I'm going to beef up the bracing a bit archtop style would that kill the sound so much that I may as well use a bit of plywood?  I'm thinking possibly a strut all the way down the middle and have two sound holes, one either side.

WezV

decent ply would be expensive too, although you should be able to get a top cheaper than that if you shop around.  I wouldn;t worry about getting top grade for this

a quick ebay search has halved your price, although it is cedar

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spruce-soundboard-for-guitar-or-two-mandolins-Luthier-tone-wood/361207401336?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=20140122125356&meid=e0de34c3b9b740bbb6d3908c650008b0&pid=100005&rk=2&rkt=6&sd=361213912544&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Luthier-Tonewood-Sitka-spruce-guitar-top-soundboard/281597352388?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=20140122125356&meid=e0de34c3b9b740bbb6d3908c650008b0&pid=100005&rk=1&rkt=6&sd=361213912544&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CEDAR-soundboard-for-acoustic-guitar-or-two-mandolins-Luthier-tone-wood-/361213912544?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item541a06e5e0

WezV

as for the archtop bracing idea - here is something I am doing on a thinline fanned fret - the top has a 15' done to it but is thin spruce like a flat top rather than carved like a proper archtop

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/temporary_zps0d50e746.jpg

I have left the braces pretty huge, but its primarily an electric instrument - wouldn't like to risk this bracing style and thin top with an acoustic instrument

DartmoorHedgehog

Thanks... weirdly I searched on ebay and didn't find much - not sure what happened there - think I searched for "acoustic guitar top wood".  Although I did find a top and back from an abandoned project up for auction for £5 with no bids...

Would I be silly to reuse the braces from the old top, considering it's proved to be a bit bendy?  (although to be fair on it it's 30 years old).

WezV

I would be hesitant to reuse the old braces for that reason

DartmoorHedgehog

Right, I've decided I won't be happy unless I have a go at this...

Bought a piece of spruce for the top (£20 from ebay, came with a mahogany back blank as well, which I'll hopefully be able to sell on).

I've got the fretboard and bridge off cleanly with the hot knife, but the top/side joint is hidden behind the plastic binding.  I reckon the binding is twice the depth of the top.  Assuming I'm not binding the new top, would I be best to remove the binding completely and then fill the channel after fitting the new top, or try to cut it in half and leave the bottom half in place?  It seems very reluctant to come off with a knife - suppose it might be easier if I sand down the varnish on the top first.

I had a look around for brace sets as well but couldn't find a UK supplier.  Any recommendations?

Sorry for all the questions

DartmoorHedgehog

The wood's arrived now so I'm committed

Still can't work out how to get the binding off to get at the top joint even after rubbing the varnish away - it's absolutely rock hard and VERY well stuck on.

WezV

it can be a pain, score around the binding on the side and use a small, sharp chisel to start you off.   once you are behind a section it should get easier to remove the rest

DartmoorHedgehog

Thanks @WezV, that's the type of thing I was going to do - I just expected the binding to be a bit less strong I think. I'll just keep at it

Any recommendations for where to get the bracing from?  Only places I've found so far are StewMac and Alibaba.