The cricket thread

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

He was 18 years old and the Tweets are offensive - he was an adult. I think his career could be over - the ECB's problem will be with its sponsors which won't want Robinson in the England team, especially when England plays India or Pakistan. There are some choice Tweets about Robinson doing the rounds from people who will continue to hound him, the ECB, and their sponsors online.

The ECB has acted responsibly IMHO.

Shannon Gabriel's career didn't end with a ban for homophobic slurs. 

Darren Lehmann's career as a coach didn't end despite his well publicised outburst against Sri Lanka. 

Several Australians haven't seen their careers end for bloody huge levels of cheating. 

So why would Robinson's career end now? 

Heartfeltdawn

Gassage said:

@Heartfeltdawn Re the 100 and sexism, I want to see sexism removed from the game completely, so let's see the men bowling at the women and vice versa.

The winner of each gender's final should have a playoff in a true battle of t'sexys. The winner gets a 24 carat gold lame Stuart Broad headband. 

Heartfeltdawn

jpfamps said:

It's also a feature of organizations too; it's a lot easier to post something on the ECB twitter feed than do anything.

I actually think most of the commentary regarding Ollie Robinson from within cricket have been pretty sensible, although there were some fairly self-righteous journos on TMS at the tea interval yesterday who grated somewhat.

Personally, I think his comments were crass and thoughtless, he seems to be genuinely contrite, and will be missing out on a Test match he would have been selected for is appropriate punishment. I expect his card has been marked and any future misdemeanours in this area wouldl be dealt with more severly.

I am also of the view that being punished in perpetuity without opportunity of redemption for something you said as an 18 year-old would be harsh in the extreme; I also wonder how many 18 year old have enough insight to moderate any inappropriate content from their Twitter feeds incase they get selected for England 9 years later.

Much of the cricket pundit train has been quite level on this, including some journalists who have been immensely critical of Yorkshire in the past and present over various matters. Again, we have to go back to the Shannon Gabriel incident. What he did was stupid but not clear evidence that he had some big huge problem with homosexuals. It was handled in the right way and there's been no issues since with him playing around the world (apart from him bowling shit for Gloucestershire for a spell). Talk of Robinson's career being over seem grossly premature in light of both Gabriel and Sandpapergate. 

It'd be a fucking odd world for a guy's career to be over on the basis of some tweets when you have several former English players whose careers didn't end the minute they went to apartheid South Africa. 

ECB reaction: like any other corporation/big business. Reputation management, nothing more. 

jpfamps

crunchman said:

MCC having influence over the game is probably better than the ICC having complete control.  The ICC would just reduce it to an all out money grab. To have the laws of the game independent of the ICC politicians is a good thing.  The MCC has its issues, but they have appointed Sangakarra as their president, and have representation from all around the world on their World Cricket Committee - including Sangakarra, Kumar Dharmasena, Saurav Ganguly, Ramiz Raja and Ricky Skerrit (WICB president) as non-white members.  Looking at the make up of the committee there seems to be representation from all the major nations.

Leaving the MCC aside, there are structural issues in English cricket.  Some of the problems with not bringing Asian players through, and players of black Caribbean origin a generation ago, are not purely down to race though.  A lot of those populations live in big cities with very poor playing facilities.  I grew up down in Devon, and there were always village teams to play for.  Even as an overweight 52 year old, I would be able to get a game from someone looking for 11 warm bodies.  That's not nearly as easy in London where I live now.  As teenagers, we used to go and use the nets at the local club during school holidays.  It was only matting on concrete, but we used to spend hours in there.  You have to pay a fortune to use nets in London.

In big cities those opportunities aren't there in the same way - whatever your racial origin.  Look at the players in the England set up, and a lot of them are ex-public school, or come through at more rural counties like Somerset, or both.  Buttler, Leach, Bess, and the Overtons have all come through at Somerset.  It's the same in rugby as well.  How many kids from big cities are in the England rugby set up?  Most of them  seem to be ex-public school or through the pipeline at Exeter Chiefs.

Reading some of the stuff about Dawood and Holder, and the Azeem Rafique situation at Yorkshire, there are definitely issues with racism in English cricket, but there are wider structural problems that need to be addressed as well.

Edit: this was in reply to @Stuckfast at 12:34.  MIght not make sense reading it all with all the intervening posts in the last half hour.

I think there is definitely a lack of facilities / interest in cricket in cities, although there also seem to be less teams in the South Cambridge league where I played from the mid 90's until about 8 years ago.

When I was at university we used to have an annual fixture again Haringey Cricket College, sadly now defunct. Keith Piper was playing for them in one fixture (we used to loose quite badly).

In the late 90s I use play cricket with some West Indian lads in North London. They were all around my age and were obviously massively into cricket, but few of their kids showed much if any interest.

Also the banks used to have amazing sport facilities, mainly in South London. I remember playng a game for Catford at Natwest's sport club and there 3rd pitch or 4th pitch. Most if not all of these have been sold off for development.

Virtually all the public schools now have extensive sport scholarship programmes, which they did not have in the 80's and 90's (Millfield being a rare exception), so they do tend to hoover up the most talented school boy players, the Vunipola brothers for example, who would not strike most people as your typical ex-public school types, and, when combined with exceptional facilities, results in a massive overreprsentation at international level.

Gassage

Stuckfast said:

As it is, it looks like they're making a cheap point while failing to tackle any of the structural issues that Michael Carberry was talking about. Why do counties where there are large numbers of people from Asian backgrounds playing amateur cricket fail to bring them through to professional level? Why is the MCC still allowed to exert such influence over the game? Why is club management and coaching still overwhelmingly white?

1. Because MCC own the copyright of the laws of the game.
2. Because they offer continuity, tradition and balance without a vested financial interest in the game.
3. Because they also own the notional and esoteric rights to the spirit of the game
4. Because you need an independent adjudicator on many things within the sport who don't have a financial or political interest
5. Because largely, the playing side of MCC is more diverse than you'd believe and is run by passionate yet informed volunteers who generally know the game inside out.

earwighoney

Heartfeltdawn said:

ECB reaction: like any other corporation/big business. Reputation management, nothing more. 

Alex Hales didn't even get a slap on the wrist for being caught taking cocaine, only on the second time did he get a 3 week ban.

crunchman said:

Leaving the MCC aside, there are structural issues in English cricket.  Some of the problems with not bringing Asian players through, and players of black Caribbean origin a generation ago, are not purely down to race though.  A lot of those populations live in big cities with very poor playing facilities.  I grew up down in Devon, and there were always village teams to play for.  Even as an overweight 52 year old, I would be able to get a game from someone looking for 11 warm bodies.  That's not nearly as easy in London where I live now.  As teenagers, we used to go and use the nets at the local club during school holidays.  It was only matting on concrete, but we used to spend hours in there.  You have to pay a fortune to use nets in London.

In big cities those opportunities aren't there in the same way - whatever your racial origin.  Look at the players in the England set up, and a lot of them are ex-public school, or come through at more rural counties like Somerset, or both.  Buttler, Leach, Bess, and the Overtons have all come through at Somerset.  It's the same in rugby as well.  How many kids from big cities are in the England rugby set up?  Most of them  seem to be ex-public school or through the pipeline at Exeter Chiefs.

Reading some of the stuff about Dawood and Holder, and the Azeem Rafique situation at Yorkshire, there are definitely issues with racism in English cricket, but there are wider structural problems that need to be addressed as well.

I live in South London, and for a lot of the club cricket I've seen (my nephew plays for Cheam, I've seen other teams he's played against in the Surrey League) and I'd say well over 50% of all the players in all age groups are of an Asian origin (Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Afghan and so on), sometimes it's close to 80%.

A few players will get picked at youth level, eg U15's etc but the numbers are very low.

I've spoken to many who have said structural racism in club cricket and selection is clear and present and I've had a few conversations with Surrey League umpires who dropped a few pearls including 'there are too many brown players etc'

Fretwired

Heartfeltdawn said:

Fretwired said:

He was 18 years old and the Tweets are offensive - he was an adult. I think his career could be over - the ECB's problem will be with its sponsors which won't want Robinson in the England team, especially when England plays India or Pakistan. There are some choice Tweets about Robinson doing the rounds from people who will continue to hound him, the ECB, and their sponsors online.

The ECB has acted responsibly IMHO.

Shannon Gabriel's career didn't end with a ban for homophobic slurs. 

Darren Lehmann's career as a coach didn't end despite his well publicised outburst against Sri Lanka. 

Several Australians haven't seen their careers end for bloody huge levels of cheating. 

So why would Robinson's career end now? 

There's a difference between muttering a homophobic slur to one player on a pitch and posting Tweets that can read by anyone.

In the age of social media, major brands are quick to distance themselves from controversy or anything that smacks of racism. The ECB needs sponsorship money. I suspect the prompt action by the ECB will be partly motivated by the need to be seen to take action and placate sponsors. They will also be aware that cricket is popular with the UK's Asian community. I have no idea how it will end but those saying it's a 'woke' overreaction are wide of the mark.

Robinson has a track record of controversy. He was sacked by Yorkshire because of his lifestyle.

Heartfeltdawn

crunchman said:

In big cities those opportunities aren't there in the same way - whatever your racial origin.  Look at the players in the England set up, and a lot of them are ex-public school, or come through at more rural counties like Somerset, or both.  Buttler, Leach, Bess, and the Overtons have all come through at Somerset.  It's the same in rugby as well.  How many kids from big cities are in the England rugby set up?  Most of them  seem to be ex-public school or through the pipeline at Exeter Chiefs.

Somerset as a county have had the local public school connections for years. Trescothick was an icon to a lot of my peers in the West Country not just because he was bloody good and played in the same leagues and changed in the same shitholes as we did but because he came from a state school background and made it. The Somerset youth sides I played back then were pretty much 50-50 private versus state. For example, you had Luke Sutton (Millfield) opening with Sam 'yes I'm his brother' Trego (Wyvern Comprehensive). Millfield, Kings, Taunton School, they were the big three. You mention Leach coming through a more rural county. He's the only state educated dude in that list. He's absolutely succeeded against the odds given his background and his medical history. 

Yesterday for England our entire top 6 were privately educated. When you look at recent years, privately educated batsmen are in much higher numbers than privately educated bowlers. Not hard to imagine why: the private school game allows for long games and longer innings. The annual Wisden schools reports don't tend to feature many comprehensives. This gem from recent years never fails to amuse me... 

https://twitter.com/Amysterypenguin/status/1398215926638600192

Gassage

Fretwired said:

There's a difference between muttering a homophobic slur to one player on a pitch and posting Tweets that can read by anyone.

Not really- but there is a huge difference between a 17 year old kid at school saying something and a grown adult saying it in an international match.

scrumhalf

The problems of society in wider terms and the take-up of cricket amongst minorities, of whom I am one, cannot be laid at the door of an immature 18-year old who failed to foresee what might happen if he came to national prominence.

Any punishment should be commensurate with the person who offended. The person who offended was a callow youth. It's not as if he came off the field if play, grabbed Ian Ward's mic and said those things.

Problems need relevant solutions, not platitudes and sticking plasters. 

jpfamps

Fretwired said:

Robinson has a track record of controversy. He was sacked by Yorkshire because of his lifestyle.

Yes, but that could be completely unrelated to any Twitter activety. I expect there are plenty of people on this forum whose lidestyle in there early 20's was not compatible with being a professional sportsman.

Plenty of cricketers in the past might have fallen fowl of current attitudes to fitness: Andrew Flintoff for example. He looks fitter now than when he was playing!

Heartfeltdawn

jpfamps said:

I think there is definitely a lack of facilities / interest in cricket in cities, although there also seem to be less teams in the South Cambridge league where I played from the mid 90's until about 8 years ago.

When I was at university we used to have an annual fixture again Haringey Cricket College, sadly now defunct. Keith Piper was playing for them in one fixture (we used to loose quite badly).

In the late 90s I use play cricket with some West Indian lads in North London. They were all around my age and were obviously massively into cricket, but few of their kids showed much if any interest.

Also the banks used to have amazing sport facilities, mainly in South London. I remember playng a game for Catford at Natwest's sport club and there 3rd pitch or 4th pitch. Most if not all of these have been sold off for development.

Virtually all the public schools now have extensive sport scholarship programmes, which they did not have in the 80's and 90's (Millfield being a rare exception), so they do tend to hoover up the most talented school boy players, the Vunipola brothers for example, who would not strike most people as your typical ex-public school types, and, when combined with exceptional facilities, results in a massive overrepresentation at international level.

Certainly in Wiltshire, Bath, Bristol, there are fewer teams. I played in a small Wiltshire town first. There were two clubs in that town running a total of 6 Saturday XIs of varying ability. Now that town is down to one club and a total of two Saturday XIs. 
One aspect that doesn't get mentioned is the greater numbers of players involved in coaching youngsters. With so many age groups playing matches now (in my day, at club levels we had U-16s and that was it), there are a number of players who give their time to coaching and so do not play as much. The collapse of strong Sunday cricket in Wiltshire is a huge shame because I learnt loads from playing on Sundays. There is absolutely no way in the world that turning up for a T20 slog would have taught me the same things or to the same level, likewise the times I played for wandering sides in all-day games. Sixth Form for me meant Monday nets, Tuesday cup match, Wednesday pub cricket or club match, Thursday training, Friday games somewhere, Saturday league, Sunday friendly, with county youth games dropped in when and wherever. An 18 year old me couldn't do that now because the fixtures aren't there any longer. 

It wasn't just the banks with fine sporting facilities. I recall some civil service grounds too and I know my father would swear to this day as to the qualities of the old Unigate Dairy cricket ground in my home town. With that home town, it's not just grounds themselves that have gone. My old primary school doesn't allow cricket in the playground. My secondary school is the same. The nets they put up have gone, the astroturf wicket they installed now has more scars on it than Jordan's boobs. The large patch of greenery in between my house and secondary school where my friends and I would all bowl, play football, and swing golf clubs... gone. The golf driving range that got loads of us into golf a couple of miles away: gone and turned into a caravan park. The avenues for non-competitive knockabout cricket are all hugely reduced, let alone actual competitive games. 

Scholarships in private schools are a very double-edged sword. They have increased as you rightly say and there is no doubt that it brings prestige to the establishment. But those scholarships have also increased as the fees themselves for non-scholarship pupils have increased. The days of the middle classes being able to get into a private school are largely over so it's possible to argue that a private school revolving around scholarships for the very best sportspeople and people who can afford whacking great fees is also less inclusive than a private school with fewer scholarships and much reduced fees. It's an argument some heads of private schools themselves have made. 

Gassage

jpfamps said:

 seem to be less teams in the South Cambridge league where I played from the mid 90's until about 8 years ago.

When I was at university we used to have an annual fixture again Haringey Cricket College, sadly now defunct. Keith Piper was playing for them in one fixture (we used to loose quite badly).

In the late 90s I use play cricket with some West Indian lads in North London. They were all around my age and were obviously massively into cricket, but few of their kids showed much if any interest.

Also the banks used to have amazing sport facilities, mainly in South London. I remember playng a game for Catford at Natwest's sport club and there 3rd pitch or 4th pitch. Most if not all of these have been sold off for development.

Virtually all the public schools now have extensive sport scholarship programmes, which they did not have in the 80's and 90's (Millfield being a rare exception), so they do tend to hoover up the most talented school boy players, the Vunipola brothers for example, who would not strike most people as your typical ex-public school types, and, when combined with exceptional facilities, results in a massive overreprsentation at international level.

BoE and Lloyds Bank grounds still thriving.

Re WI lads....one of the shining lights around that time, Kervin Marc, left the game to build his market stall business and couldn't get the time off to play. He was a better bowler than Alex Tudor, who was the same age/year.

UnclePsychosis

If the ECB didn't punish Robinson then they'd be exposing themselves to all kinds of bother "the next time" an ECB employee fell foul of the same kind of issue. 

An employment lawyer would have a field day with that. 'why are you punishing my client when, in a well publicised case, Mr Robinson suffered no punishment at all. This is clearly victimisation and will form the basis of our argument in court'.

When you have HR policies, equalities policies, etc., you have to follow them regardless of how inconvenient it is. The reason for this is not political correctness or 'woke culture'- its that lawyers are fucking well good at their jobs. 

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

Robinson has a track record of controversy. 

So has Ben Stokes. His career didn't get shitcanned after being sent home from a Lions tour or for drink driving. So why is Robinson's career in the dumper now? 

Gassage

UnclePsychosis said:

If the ECB didn't punish Robinson then they'd be exposing themselves to all kinds of bother "the next time" an ECB employee fell foul of the same kind of issue. 

An employment lawyer would have a field day with that. 'why are you punishing my client when, in a well publicised case, Mr Robinson suffered no punishment at all. This is clearly victimisation and will form the basis of our argument in court'.

When you have HR policies, equalities policies, etc., you have to follow them regardless of how inconvenient it is. The reason for this is not political correctness or 'woke culture'- its that lawyers are fucking well good at their jobs. 

An employment lawyer would find it very hard to offer evidence that 1) didn't happen on ECB watch 2) was done over 7 years ago (limitation statute) 3) that has been publicly apologised for.

Besides, if someone was relying upon this event as mitigation, they'd not have a very strong case to start with.

Teetonetal

Fretwired said:

Stuckfast said:

What do we make of banning Ollie Robinson over offensive tweets he made ten years ago? Seems way harsh to punish him now for something he did when he was a teenager which no-one seems to have complained about at the time. He won't be the first person to act like a berk at that age.

He was 18 years old and the Tweets are offensive - he was an adult. I think his career could be over - the ECB's problem will be with its sponsors which won't want Robinson in the England team, especially when England plays India or Pakistan. There are some choice Tweets about Robinson doing the rounds from people who will continue to hound him, the ECB, and their sponsors online.

The ECB has acted responsibly IMHO.

I hope we never end up being a society that doesn't allow the scope that people can change for the better.  

Lots of 18 year old say a multitude of dumb things that may well be regretted should a paper pick up on them later in life.

I think it's right that the ECB take time to investigate, but that should focus on his recent behaviour and look to prove that he is no longer the same person (or projecting the same image).

The ECB also need to take action on behalf of other professional cricketers who may be called up to the squad and have to be confident that his presence in the team is not going to be an issue for the team overall. If his peers can accept he has changed, then no further issue. If the investigation doesn't turn up anything, then his career should resume as it has with others.

Stuckfast

@jpfamps which team did you play for in South Cambs? I played for Granta and then Linton in the junior leagues, our paths may have crossed!

Moving to Yorkshire has been a bit of an eye-opener though. Cricket and rugby are so much more a part of everyday life here. Our club fields four teams on a Saturday and would have more except we don't have enough pitches. Our over 50s yesterday was at Woodhouse Grange -- it's not even a village and they have an ECB Premier League side. Junior cricket beyond U11 is still a bit dominated by private schools but there's not the same level of arrogance you used to get with the Perse School kids in Cambridge.

Heartfeltdawn

Gassage said:

BoE and Lloyds Bank grounds still thriving.

Re WI lads....one of the shining lights around that time, Kervin Marc, left the game to build his market stall business and couldn't get the time off to play. He was a better bowler than Alex Tudor, who was the same age/year.

Tudor is five months older than me. First time facing him in county youth cricket in my mid teens, he felt 5 foot taller as well. 

The reduction of West Indian involvement in the overall game in this country is a huge loss. Dunno if you ever played against them but the Bristol West Indian club in their pomp were wonderful to play against and to watch as a neutral.

Heartfeltdawn

Teetonetal said:

The ECB also need to take action on behalf of other professional cricketers who may be called up to the squad and have to be confident that his presence in the team is not going to be an issue for the team overall. If his peers can accept he has changed, then no further issue. If the investigation doesn't turn up anything, then his career should resume as it has with others.

But enough about KP, what about Robinson?