Two many numbers ?

bertie

Jalapeno said:

ChrisMusic said:

Hey @bertie,

It started off because I want to post some fairly simple guitar exercises, and am looking for an easy way that is recognised for writing the exercises out, that's if there is one.

I worded it in a fairly open ended way to see what wider discussions would ensue.

The rest is history.  It does seem to have taken on a life of its own.  I rather enjoy that.

Maybe a bit of a WTF moment, but I think it's getting quite interesting - non?

Careful now, @Bertie and music theory is a heady mixture !

and it should be in the correct forum,  so as not to cross-pollute 

ChrisMusic

@bertie said:  and it should be in the correct forum,  so as not to cross-pollute 

And they will be, when the wide ranging and open discussion is through, the contents distilled, relevance assigned, hangover cured...

ChrisMusic

Thanks @frankus, I really appreciate you sharing that.  It is good perspective on my situation, good advice too.

I am even thinking that being back on stage might be fun again.

And, yes I see music as creation, expression, communication, sharing and emotion.

Music touches the soul in a way that is more immediate than many other art forms can, IMHO.

Cheers  

ChrisMusic

@Phil_aka_Pip.  Thanks for the information on the RockSchool books and others.  Never having learnt classical guitar, I was unaware that they had their own systems for notating specifics.  I have noticed in a couple of threads, that the classical approach seems more inclusive and rigorous.  It would have been good to have discovered that earlier in my playing life, but it may well be worth checking out some classical lessons.  Thanks for the pointer to that.

This maybe a naive question, but what do 'p i m a' stand for, and is it easy to adapt to using it ? (this is probably a 'doh' moment)

I take it that the only way to add guitar specific notation is by hand to a score or exercise.  Is there any software solution that you are aware of ?

Do you have any use for neck diagrams, et al? if so how much information* can you reasonably disseminate with one ? (ie maybe out of the list* I posted at the onset of this thread)  And how would you prioritise and display that information?

I came across the term "intervallics" on a few occasions, what is meant by that?  Is it someone's specific interpretation or a more generally accepted system?  (I do understand intervals btw)

Your answers are appreciated, so thanks in advance.

Phil_aka_Pip

@ChrisMusic p i m a are the plucking hand equivalents of 1 2 3 4, and indicate which digit does the plucking

p = pulgar, the thumb
i = index
m - middle
a = annulus ie ring finger

I suspect that this style of notation would be explained in classical guitar tutor or grade books (AB, Trinity &c) in similar manner to the way in which Rockschool explain theirs.

The notation often gives it away by writing the music in two parts on one stave: the "bass" notes (played with the thumb typically on strings 4,5,6) have their stems going down, whereas the other notes (played with the fingers typically on strings 4,3,2,1) have their stems going up and it is usually obvious which fingers should be used.

I have an ageing version of Sibelius which runs on an Acorn RISC PC, dating from 1997. All the classical annotations are available (fretting & picking fingering, positioning, string numbers) plus the common musical symbols for (eg) spreading a chord. I suspect most modern notation systems would include commonly used guitarists' symbols or symbols that can be adapted for guitar.

I do have a use for neck diagrams, for teaching purposes. 6 horizontal lines represent the strings, vertical lines represent frets, you can have the nut at either end of the diagram depending on whether it is a LH or RH guitar, string 1 is the highest in the diagram (ie the furthest away from you if the paper is on a table in front of you, and therefore analogous to the way the fingerboard presents itself to you as a player). You can put spots for where the player puts a finger - for teaching chord/arpeggio/scale patterns by rote ... or you can write note names in ... or as I do you can make the diagram moveable with no nut at either and and write the note functions in (R,3,5,7 etc) for chords/arpeggios (R,2,b3,4,5,b6,7) for scales. Such diagrams can be made with notepad or word but ensure you use courier new font otherwise it won't work.

I think intervallics refers to chord progressions eg I vi IV V but others who know better may contradict me.

ChrisMusic

Thanks again @Phil_aka_Pip, nicely clarified.

I am curious as to whether there is the extra letter for the little finger in classical?  It is useful in picking and right hand technique, but would obviously complete the set for left hand.   p, i, m, a, ?

I obviously need to check out software solutions, it has been quite a while, but I am not expecting any standardisation there.

The use of a mono spaced font make sense for text rendition of tab & neck type diagrams, I hadn't even considered that.

Another little question if I may:

Do you know if there any any names for finger patterns, ie in three note per string scale shapes?

Like these, major scale first three notes are whole / whole apart, Phrygian mode half / whole, Dorian whole / half; which covers the finger patterns, or shapes, for all the modes of the major scale.

Adding in altered or the harmonic major then there are the additional patterns of half / 'one & a half', and the inverse pattern of 'one & a half' / half, and chromatic or Hungarian minor instances of half / half.

snakemanStoo

There is. Little finger is c

ChrisMusic

Cheers Stoo

ChrisMusic

So if I have read the previous generously donated comments correctly, am I right in assuming:

Standard notation has some serious limitations but is pretty entrenched.

Supplementary and instrument specific annotation is the most used method to add performance and articulation information to it.

There are no accepted standards for that supplementary information.

Software solutions apply arbitrary standards and will therefore lack consistency and maybe add confusion if interpreted by someone used to different symbols.

The advent of electronic music leaves even bigger holes in the ability to accurately convey performance information.

Text annotation is often used, and while flexible, is at the mercy of the vagaries of language, and interpreting intent can be difficult without access to the author.

littlegreenman

Yep. Like any form of communication, music notation is constantly evolving. There is no "correct" form, only varying degrees of pedantry

ChrisMusic

Nice one   )

ChrisMusic

Back to the subject of too many numbers.

I was thinking about how to use substitution for clarity,

particularly for adding additional information to neck diagrams or to tab.

So what options are there?        (please feel free to make any additions or corrections to this)

Roman numerals

Letters

Font choice

Style choice   (bold, underline etc)

Size

Colour choice    (colour blindness is a bit of an issue with this though)

Shapes as substitute

Location (choice of) to carry information

Or a mix of the above, with maybe two or more attributes to reinforce the meaning.

edit: some of this has been alluded to in previous comments

Waddya think oh wise people of the FretBoard ???

Phil_aka_Pip

snakemanStoo said: There is. Little finger is c

I wondered if it was but I wasn't sure. Stoo, do you know what the c stands for? (No wisecracks now!). Does anyone know of players other than John Williams and Lowell George who used all 5 digits for plucking?

Ref "standard names" for patterns. Alan Limbrick at The Guitar Institute referred to "Shapes 1,2,3,4,5" of the Minor pentatonic scale, "Shapes 1,2,3,4,5,6,7" of The Major Scale, and similar of the Melodic Minor Scale. Shapes other than 1 were of course the relevant modes -  those were all the 3-notes-per-string scales. IIRC he also referred to "Shapes 1,2,3,45" of commonly used arpeggio patterns (Maj7, min7, Dom7, m7(b5))

Of the "options" you suggest, they all seem fairly standardised except for colour (music is usually printed in b&w, and colour would be a problem if you had to play under coloured lighting); the only "shape" substitute I know of is the triangle for "Maj7". Standards usually adopted include italics for plucking fingers, bold for fretting fingers, roman numerals for position...

randomhandclaps

 

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Does anyone know of players other than John Williams and Lowell George who used all 5 digits for plucking?

I do, but I was taught classically as I child.  Also I play a lot of hybrid picking and having the ability to confidently pick with my little finger means holding a pick isn't overly limiting.  Weirdly the systems change and even with classical you only teach PIMA. 

C stands for chiquito as they are all Spanish derived.  Pulgar (thumb), indice (index), medio (middle), anular (ring), and chiquito (little).

Phil_aka_Pip

thank you @randomhandclaps, wisdom duly awarded

ChrisMusic

Once again my gratitude to both @Phil_aka_Pip and @randomhandclaps for their comments.

Using the Greek delta for "Maj7" reminded me of the other symbol set of the Greek alphabet.  But that obviously means understanding their use in their native tongue, or anything I develop here will be English language centric, and hence of limited use and may travel badly.

The same applies to Cyrillic script, (which was devised during the 10th century and was based on the Greek uncial script).

(I have put links to web examples in both script names above if you fancy a look)

Are there any native users of either on here who can shed a little light on this for me?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Little (chiquito) finger bit:

On returning to playing again I am trying to coax all of my fingers into action, the speed, flexibility, co-ordination and independence had all but vanished in both hands, and it is a long road back to where I was, and beyond.

So I too am concentrating on developing my right hand little finger, I used to use it sporadically but being shorter than the others, it was always a bit cumbersome, but then that never stops left hand technique (unless you are Andy James).

Like randomhandclaps, I feel that it is well worth the effort for hybrid picking as the shorter finger doesn't seem to be such an issue as in regular finger picking (note to self - need to try harder), and also gives the control for 8 finger tapping if I ever develop that, and for rasgueado.

For a bit of all fingers playing, check out the amazing Adam Fulara     (plenty of other YouTube vids too)

Prelude in C Minor - J S Bach

Adam Fulara- Lose Yourself (Eminem) - counterpoint tapping version

Extraordinary technique     (inc a few bum notes, but hey...)

Latest from his new CD

Check out Adam:

 http://adam.fulara.com/

frankus

ChrisMusic;73786" said:

Back to the subject of too many numbers.

I was thinking about how to use substitution for clarity,particularly for adding additional information to neck diagrams or to tab.

So what options are there?        (please feel free to make any additions or corrections to this)

Roman numeralsLettersFont choiceStyle choice   (bold, underline etc)SizeColour choice    (colour blindness is a bit of an issue with this though)Shapes as substituteLocation (choice of) to carry information

Or a mix of the above, with maybe two or more attributes to reinforce the meaning.edit: some of this has been alluded to in previous comments

Waddya think oh wise people of the FretBoard ???

I think if notation completely encompassed all aspects of playing guitar there would be no nuance or interpretation to differentiate individuals - we'd simply get a midi player to do all the donkey work.

or as Lao Tsu put it:

The way that can be spoken of
is not the constant way.
The name that can be named
is not the constant name
the nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth
and the named was the mother of a myriad of creatures.

or at the risk of DaveMck getting a hard-on.. a quote from the Bodhidharma:

If you use your mind to study reality,
you won't understand either your mind or reality.
If you study reality without using your mind,
you'll understand both.

Be certain of why you want a method of notation...

as for tappety tappety stuff very little of the electric stuff inspires me, but I do like Eric Roche, Thomas Leeb, Richard Capener or even Stanley Jordan for stuff that doesn't sound (to my ears - I'm afraid) like an etude.

also this for stuff that really defies notation :



all the best

Phil_aka_Pip

frankus said:

I think if notation completely encompassed all aspects of playing guitar there would be no nuance or interpretation to differentiate individuals - we'd simply get a midi player to do all the donkey work.

That's kind of what I was trying to get at when I mentioned concert violinists playing the same score but each sounding different. I rather like listening to Andrew McGregor's CD Review on R3 Saturday mornings - I didn't know there could be so many ways of playing the same piece of music.

Although, having agreed with you, I might suggest that even if you could notate every nuance I don't thing it would be possible for humans to reproduce accurately what was notated such that different performances could not be distinguished.

Jalapeno

Chord charts - if you see these ......

Ø = half dimished - min7b5

Δ = Maj / Maj7

° (Degree sign, or circle) = Diminished

frankus

Phil_aka_Pip said:

Although, having agreed with you, I might suggest that even if you could notate every nuance I don't thing it would be possible for humans to reproduce accurately what was notated such that different performances could not be distinguished.

I don't know the more descriptive a thing becomes the less subjective it is until you basically have a "right" and a "wrong" way of playing it. Which I think is anti-music.

Roman Numerals are usedin Nashville notation in case that's not been mentioned.