Herbal fraudsters...

Myranda

So my mother asks me about helping her find one of her herbal remedies online as the shop she normally buys from has stopped selling it.

She'd been told that Goldenseal Root wasn't available because some government agency is <something conspiratorial>

So I thought I'd wiki it - looks like it's not on sale because it's an endangered species.

a) Because 60 million plants are harvested each year and none planted

b) Because Mining operations in its habitat have:

1) no legal rights to transplant the plants to another location

2) no penalty for destroying it to get at the minerals they're mining...

Hmm not so much a conspiracy as the weirdy beardy types making a species extinct because it's profitable.

Reading on.

There's no studies that show it has any positive effects.

There ARE studies that suggest there may be a level of toxicity to it 

Apparently it's used to aid digestion, boost the immune system, cure cancer, anti inflamatory and anti septic

It might cause diarrhea, and at least one component might cause death.

So, after reading that it does nothing good, that it might harm or kill you, after reading that it's an endangered species - does that put her off?

No.

So ingrained is the idea that something that grows in the ground is good for you and that when she's not taken it she got a cold, and so taken with all the BS she still still wants some.

Looking online for it, and every website that sells the stuff seems to claim different positive effects. I'm pretty sure that if I checked enough sites I'd find they're getting imaginative with the bullshit "rub it on a duck to cure athletes foot" or "shove it up a pony to get golden eggs"

Why are these people allowed to prey upon the gullible? Many of the sites selling this crap also sell Acai which has been sufficiently debunked that saying it's anything other than fruit is likely outright fraud... what happened to not being allowed to make claims of a product that have no factual basis?

ToneControl

human nature sadly, everyone loves silver bullets, you'd probably need to find something less dodgy that also comes with enough hype to make her feel good about it

Skipped

These threads are always interesting because they attract slightly angry people who say that all herbal remedies are bogus and then other slightly angry people (like me) who say "Eh? There are are no herbs which impact health or mood?"
If a mineral can act like a powerful drug, why not a herb?

Myranda

Thing is - we know that some herbs do have a medicinal effect.

Aspirin is derived from tree bark

Penicillin is produced by mould... 

etc.

But, if the entire scientific community agree that plant X doesn't do what people are trying to make a buck from it doing then stop them doing it. If no studies have been done yet, do science at it. If studies show it does a thing then hurrah!

octatonic

This is why I have such a problem with so called 'alternative medicine'.

The stuff that doesn't work (or cannot be proved to work) is called alternative medicine.

The stuff that does work is called 'MEDICINE'.

Myranda

Although, something that does work but hasn't been tested yet shouldn't be discounted...

Those things that ARE discounted as not working though shouldn't even be called alternative medicine as that implies medicinal value of some sort

octatonic

Myranda said:

Although, something that does work but hasn't been tested yet shouldn't be discounted...

Those things that ARE discounted as not working though shouldn't even be called alternative medicine as that implies medicinal value of some sort

Depend on what people mean by 'work'.

So much of what people think actually 'works' only works thanks to placebo effect and confirmation bias.

Usually, under double blind tests, the stuff that people think that 'works' simply doesn't.

Myranda

Well when talking about meds and saying "work" I mean has repeatable scientifically valid effects (ideally positive ones) as shown by double blind trials.

ToneControl

the thing is, if someone made some modern pharma-derived medicine, and then just started selling it, without testing, claiming that it fixes illness X, then everyone would be very unhappy that efficacy, side effects and toxicity has not been proved. If it's some plant-extract, people think everything is happy mother nature doing her thing, no problems, but of course, any garden has plenty of things that can kill you, mother nature is not always kind, and taking unproven medicines from any source carries risk, and not just the risk that it doesn't do the good it claims

Whilst some medics are very resistant to change, as a whole they are pretty keen to use any treatment that can be proven to work - they use leechs and maggots even, but there is a bit of a conspiracy-theory-based idea that modern medicine, which we are so lucky to have, is not as good as some traditional stuff that was never scientifically proven to work.

Generally, "alternative" medicine means "unproven, non-scientific" medicine, and whilst placebos can help sometimes when no clear cure is available, I am worried about the stories I hear that people are presenting themselves to the NHS with way more advanced cancer than in the past because they have been self-medicating with traditional medicines instead of seeking help for the NHS

octatonic

ToneControl said:

the thing is, if someone made some modern pharma-derived medicine, and then just started selling it, without testing, claiming that it fixes illness X, then everyone would be very unhappy that efficacy, side effects and toxicity has not been proved. If it's some plant-extract, people think everything is happy mother nature doing her thing, no problems, but of course, any garden has plenty of things that can kill you, mother nature is not always kind, and taking unproven medicines from any source carries risk, and not just the risk that it doesn't do the good it claims

Whilst some medics are very resistant to change, as a whole they are pretty keen to use any treatment that can be proven to work - they use leechs and maggots even, but there is a bit of a conspiracy-theory-based idea that modern medicine, which we are so lucky to have, is not as good as some traditional stuff that was never scientifically proven to work.

Generally, "alternative" medicine means "unproven, non-scientific" medicine, and whilst placebos can help sometimes when no clear cure is available, I am worried about the stories I hear that people are presenting themselves to the NHS with way more advanced cancer than in the past because they have been self-medicating with traditional medicines instead of seeking help for the NHS

Have a wisdom.

Precisely this.

The idea of 'natural' = healthy is a profoundly dangerous notion.

There are many natural substances that are absolutely lethal in small doses- spider venom, uranium, asbestos, arsenic, botulism, formaldehyde & anthrax are all NATURAL substances.

PolarityMan

octatonic said:

ToneControl said:

the thing is, if someone made some modern pharma-derived medicine, and then just started selling it, without testing, claiming that it fixes illness X, then everyone would be very unhappy that efficacy, side effects and toxicity has not been proved. If it's some plant-extract, people think everything is happy mother nature doing her thing, no problems, but of course, any garden has plenty of things that can kill you, mother nature is not always kind, and taking unproven medicines from any source carries risk, and not just the risk that it doesn't do the good it claims

Whilst some medics are very resistant to change, as a whole they are pretty keen to use any treatment that can be proven to work - they use leechs and maggots even, but there is a bit of a conspiracy-theory-based idea that modern medicine, which we are so lucky to have, is not as good as some traditional stuff that was never scientifically proven to work.

Generally, "alternative" medicine means "unproven, non-scientific" medicine, and whilst placebos can help sometimes when no clear cure is available, I am worried about the stories I hear that people are presenting themselves to the NHS with way more advanced cancer than in the past because they have been self-medicating with traditional medicines instead of seeking help for the NHS

Have a wisdom.

Precisely this.

The idea of 'natural' = healthy is a profoundly dangerous notion.

There are many natural substances that are absolutely lethal in small doses- spider venom, uranium, asbestos, arsenic, botulism, formaldehyde & anthrax are all NATURAL substances.

Yup, a kick in the balls is a natural substance and thats pretty harmful.

Myranda

I recently wondered if Olbas oil was fine to put in the bath (had a cold and wanted to soak...) there was a fantastic thread on mumsnet about how a womans child drank some and was violently ill.

She concluded with a sort of - How can they sell something toxic as natural?!!!1 

No matter how many others said things like "deadly nightshade is natural, get a grip" she kept posting ill-informed-shouty-nonsense ... was like a text version of loose women

octatonic

Myranda said:

I recently wondered if Olbas oil was fine to put in the bath (had a cold and wanted to soak...) there was a fantastic thread on mumsnet about how a womans child drank some and was violently ill.

She concluded with a sort of - How can they sell something toxic as natural?!!!1 

Sink me.

Honestly, I've not got a lot of sympathy for people that are this stupid- it seems like wilful ignorance.

What bothers me is they are breeding.

Myranda

While I'm sure I'd be considered a monster, were I in power I think I'd have some sort of exam to allow folks to have kids. 

The pass mark would be high.

Anyone trying to explain that homeopathic water memory is anything but snake oil (... er... snake water?) would fail the test.

snakemanStoo

Myranda said:

While I'm sure I'd be considered a monster, were I in power I think I'd have some sort of exam to allow folks to have kids. 

The pass mark would be high.

I have long thought this. 

Have some widsom 

Emp_Fab

I once had a hot bath and put some eucalyptus oil in... thinking it might help with my cold.

WRONG.

It set fire to my skin and had me jumping out of the bath with a scrotum that resembled a sunburned baboon's arse.

octatonic

Emp_Fab said:

I once had a hot bath and put some eucalyptus oil in... thinking it might help with my cold.

WRONG.

It set fire to my skin and had me jumping out of the bath with a scrotum that resembled a sunburned baboon's arse.

On the positive, you did 'science'.

Bucket

I'm just going to leave this here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtYkyB35zkk

ToneControl

Myranda said:

I recently wondered if Olbas oil was fine to put in the bath (had a cold and wanted to soak...) there was a fantastic thread on mumsnet about how a womans child drank some and was violently ill.

She concluded with a sort of - How can they sell something toxic as natural?!!!1 

No matter how many others said things like "deadly nightshade is natural, get a grip" she kept posting ill-informed-shouty-nonsense ... was like a text version of loose women

heh

yes, although I occasionally watch Loose women, it's often a bit like rubbernecking at a crash on the motorway. I always wonder what a backlash there would be if a bunch of similar blokes spent an hour mulling over the world on TV every afternoon (well actually you could just stream video from a pub). Top gear without cars is probably what it would feel like

 

digitalscream

That, young @Bucket, was exactly what I needed. Thank you.

ToneControl

octatonic said:

 

 

Sink me.

Honestly, I've not got a lot of sympathy for people that are this stupid- it seems like wilful ignorance.

What bothers me is they are breeding.

Intelligence variation is roughly symmetrical, so sadly as well as the top 10%-20% for intelligence, there comes a bottom 10%-20%, and people are rarely brave enough to discuss the struggle those people have with understanding the complexity thrown at them.

Having said that, there are lot of people who are around average intelligence or better who believe all sort of bizarre stuff. For example, that Gillian McKeith was a good example of someone masquerading as a scientist helping people. She deserves plenty of bad karma