Gotta work till we're 68 now.

Cirrus

I think the problem is that as technology develops, there's less need for a large workforce and that's a problem when the global economy hangs on to this notion that you live off what you earn from working. It's a long term problem that started at the beginning of the industrial revolution and has carried on to this day - a new technological development means that thousands of people's jobs are replaced by ten people and a machine. What are those thousands of people to do? Go and find new jobs, which probably don't exist. The commercial world casts these people aside. Some may find new work. Maybe some will start a company or invent something. But not everyone is cut out for that.

If we take it to its logical extreme, what would happen if a machine was made that could provide humanity with everything it needed? Food, clothing, housing, energy, and goods - computers, cars, all the mass produced shite we love. There'd be no need for anyone to work. There would still be the arts - music, tv, etc, services like restaurants because it's nice to go out and have a meal and entertainment like tourism etc. But not everyone is cut out to be a chef, or musician, or philosopher, or to sit out their days idly enjoying a perfectly tended garden. It goes against our very nature.

I suspect that humans being who they are would wage a pointless war over the machine. Someone would win it and force people into slavery to serve them, the rightful rulers of the machine. They would be given goals to aspire to, things that felt like freedom - a house you could only afford by slaving for your whole life, a car so you could drive about and meet fellow slaves in your rest periods. People who served well might be granted a few years of retirement at the end of their life, a "kindness" from the benevolent ruler.

VimFuego

Cirrus said:

 

I suspect that humans being who they are would wage a pointless war over the machine. Someone would win it and force people into slavery to serve them, the rightful rulers of the machine. They would be given goals to aspire to, things that felt like freedom - a house you could only afford by slaving for your whole life, a car so you could drive about and meet fellow slaves in your rest periods. People who served well might be granted a few years of retirement at the end of their life, a "kindness" from the benevolent ruler.

sorry, but this is just silly speculation. Nothing like that could ever come about, it's just so far fetched...

dafuzz

The machine would invent other, better machines and human existence would change so radically, so quickly, it's impossible to predict how we will live or whether we will be better or worse off for it.

I don't actually know that for sure, I've just been reading The Singularity by Kurzweil

Fusionista

VimFuego said:

that's kind of my point, we have to work. It's fundamental to us as a species, we can't just sit around drinking g&t on a beach

Yeah, I tried that when I was a stude and it really did get boring. It was in Italy and had a really nice German gf...

You may ask yourself, am I right, am I wrong? 
You may say to yourself, my god, what have I done? 

viz

were you on a "sand"wich course, geddit?

mike_l

I suppose I should do some work then :ar!

Fusionista

4-year course, 1-year abroad, I made it 18 months by including both summer hols...

You may ask yourself, where is that large automobile? 
You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful house 
You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful wife 

viz

OK. By the way, have you noticed that you're putting talking head lyrics at the end of your messages?

Fusionista

Story of my life...

Cirrus

chillidoggy

octatonic said:

chillidoggy said:

I'm working on early retirement, never mind 68. If I live that long it'll be a miracle.

I never want to 'retire' as such but I'm working on being able to do what I want, rather than what I have to do.

I'm working on having enough cash to be able to do what I want when I stop full time employment. Which is kind of what you're saying. But as I don't currently do the lottery, it could be a longer job than I originally thought. If I had enough cash I'd be out of the door as soon as I'd got my coat on. Someone else can clear my desk.

Fusionista

Too close for comfort mate - have a LOL

Drew_TNBD

You don't need cash to be able to do what you want. You just need to be able to stomach the result of not having cash, or at least having very little of it.

The whole "I'm working to be able to retire early and do what I want to do" path is fraught with delusion and heart attacks.

If you don't want to work, then don't. Simple. If you do want to work, but not in a shitty office, then don't. Simple. Get a 15-20 hour a week job at a McDonalds, and spend the rest of the time playing guitar. But realise once you do that; no family, limited social life, no feelings of accomplishment, etc.. etc..

It's not that you're trapped. It's that you don't want to give up the perks that working a 40hour week gives you. Dems the breaks.

Col_Decker

the perks being a roof and food?

Fusionista

A wisdom for that.  I find myself having an occasional twinge of discontent when I meet someone who is loafing about on a public sector inflation-proofed pension or a fat-cat final-salary job, but as my wife says, I have "had a life."  On the couple of occasions I looked at being an apparatchik or a corporate man I could not get out of there fast enough.

Drew_TNBD

You can get roof and food with very little money. All you need to do - even in London - is be willing to share a house with 6 or 7 other people, have a shared kitchen, lounge, and possibly share a bedroom with a girlfriend too. We did it at uni, probably 7 years ago now I guess. We were paying £216 per-month, per-person for ages - that was all bills, council tax, and rent. This is in London as well.

But most 30-something year olds aren't willing to live like that. So they need a job. It isn't rocket science. You have these desires and needs, and in order to get them, you sacrifice some of your energy and freedom.

The trick is to not have desires or needs! Not so easy when you're barraged by a culture that nigh on enforces a culture of conformity. If you get to 44 and you don't have kids, people think you're weird. If you get to 29 and don't have a steady relationship, people think you're weird.

And it's also not so easy when those desires and needs give you benefits of themselves. It's lovely to have a family, it's lovely to be in a committed relationship with someone you love. It's lovely to come home, and not have a messy kitchen because 6 other people haven't cleaned up their mess.

Again, it isn't rocket science. We know within a pretty narrow band, how people will react in certain situations. Communes don't work because not everyone puts in the same effort, so there are negatives that come from that. Living alone doesn't work because of the isolation, loneliness, and negativity that encroaches into your life. Living with a long term girlfriend or wife puts you in a mindset of thinking about "the future" all the time, and most women want kids, as a man this is something that scares the shit out of us. We generally don't want them, because then our quality of life is really fucked - work harder, pay more, have less for yourself. Rational self interest tells us that it is a dumb move for any one to make, yet we still do it.

We make our choices, and have to see them through.

Bellycaster

See that Cort Guitars Video?

That's the U.K in 20 years that is!

Once more it's bend over and grease up time again.

People don't need to keep working in order to stay alive, there are other things in life like Walking, Fishing, Gardening and Bowls and lots more. That is possibly the weakest argument ever. If you are able bodied you can get out and do things for free or for cheap.

Some people choose to stay working for spare cash, fair enough, if that's what they want.

The perpetual rhetoric on "The Deficit" is BULLSHIT. A Country can never ever ever ever ever ever ever have zero National Debt as the entire basis of the Banking System is based on "Fucking Debt".

It's just a lame pretext to keep people under the boot, keep taxing you and then hope you pop off the mortal coil before they have to pay you any pension.

The idea of living in a Kibbutz or a Gulag never really appealed to me either. I don't think it's too much to ask for a man to live in his own preferred circumstances, lots of people, myself included, only want a simple, quiet life with enough to get by. Not everyone wants all the trapping and excesses, me included again.

But it seems even that is too much to ask. With my work my body will be fucked up by 65, let alone 68, if I live that long that is.

Rant Over.

octatonic

Drew_fx said:

You don't need cash to be able to do what you want. You just need to be able to stomach the result of not having cash, or at least having very little of it.

The whole "I'm working to be able to retire early and do what I want to do" path is fraught with delusion and heart attacks.

If you don't want to work, then don't. Simple. If you do want to work, but not in a shitty office, then don't. Simple. Get a 15-20 hour a week job at a McDonalds, and spend the rest of the time playing guitar. But realise once you do that; no family, limited social life, no feelings of accomplishment, etc.. etc..

It's not that you're trapped. It's that you don't want to give up the perks that working a 40hour week gives you. Dems the breaks.

I tend to agree with this.

I have a very modest lifestyle when you come down to it.

I don't spend money on much- but when I do I tend to make sure it is something that lasts or has a high residual so that I can sell it on and not lose much.

The main way to break free of the rat race is to get other people run the race for you.

It is the old 'work smarter, not harder' argument.

tonyrath

I am 68 still working because they keep sending me bills.  People who retired in previous times just got poorer and poorer or died of cold and neglect. Its never been that good for pensioners 

Fretwired

tonyrath said:

I am 68 still working because they keep sending me bills.  People who retired in previous times just got poorer and poorer or died of cold and neglect. Its never been that good for pensioners 

Most pensioners have never had it so good. The baby boomers stole all the wealth and pulled up the drawbridge. They had free education, affordable homes and index linked pensions and most live very well. They get free bus passes, TV licences, winter fuel allowances, prescriptions and so on. Yes there's poverty but that affects a great swathe of society.

I feel sorry for today's young people who've been royally shafted by the older generation.