Gotta work till we're 68 now.

Drew_TNBD

Fretwired said:

tonyrath said:

I am 68 still working because they keep sending me bills.  People who retired in previous times just got poorer and poorer or died of cold and neglect. Its never been that good for pensioners 

Most pensioners have never had it so good. The baby boomers stole all the wealth and pulled up the drawbridge. They had free education, affordable homes and index linked pensions and most live very well. They get free bus passes, TV licences, winter fuel allowances, prescriptions and so on. Yes there's poverty but that affects a great swathe of society.

I feel sorry for today's young people who've been royally shafted by the older generation.

This.

Antique_Guitars

Strangely I was talking to my dad about this kinda thing last week, he is near retirement age, has been working part time for a while and is looking to cut down on his hours even more. I don't really understand it too be honest, I have seen so many people retire then die shortly afterwards. I said to him your just going to do nothing if you retire you might as well do something or find a hobby. Personally I want to just work till I die but hopefully doing something that I like.

johnnyurq

I tend to agree with @VimFuego, @Bellycaster with a small side order of @Drew_fx.

The problems as I see it apart from not freeing up jobs for starters by way of shuffling the pack and promotion.

But really what about people who are not able choice wise to do or choose hard physical jobs like say a hid carrier or some other hard graft. There is no way that their bodies could cope up to 68 and beyond.

Also they do not earn enough to get a decent pension pot together because we all know that as well as robbing bastards ripping private pensions off or they "under perform". 

Remember the poor fuckers who lost 30 and 40 years of paying in by white and blue collar criminals like the Roger twats. Aided and abetted by the politicians regardless of type. That was a scandal and they walked away scot free instead of prosecuted and jailed as they deserved.

There has been too many cases like this and until it is sorted out who can really trust these plans.

But I know guys who work in heavy duty manual work and they are near fucked @50 never mind 68, particularly self employed ones who also funs it hard to supplement the state pension.

We all know to have a decent pension pot you need to start as early as possible or put in big lumps of a wage that maybe cannot sustain that. So changing the goalposts like this smacks of political knee jerk reactions ill thought out. 

It is not like we haven't seen it coming and I am certainly no expert but remember having discussions many years ago and regularly since, so the so called experts have no excuse.

It needs sorted for the future no question, but I am not convinced this is the way to do it.

People will need to lower their expectations and sense of entitlement of what a cosy and well funded retirement. But that is a whole of life way of thinking and if more did it the household debt would not be the many billions it currently is.

The days of behaving like the much maligned baby boomers and live within our means. But we need to remember that a lot folks do not have private pensions and are in jobs that make a later retirement hell.

I cannot offer any solutions but surely it is not beyond the ken of mankind to sort it out, but if the will was there and tighter controls on private and big company pensions we may get on better.

chillidoggy

Fretwired said:

tonyrath said:

I am 68 still working because they keep sending me bills.  People who retired in previous times just got poorer and poorer or died of cold and neglect. Its never been that good for pensioners 

Most pensioners have never had it so good. The baby boomers stole all the wealth and pulled up the drawbridge. They had free education, affordable homes and index linked pensions and most live very well. They get free bus passes, TV licences, winter fuel allowances, prescriptions and so on. Yes there's poverty but that affects a great swathe of society.

I feel sorry for today's young people who've been royally shafted by the older generation.

I've never shafted anyone of the younger generation. Only the wife.

ESBlonde

If all the baby boomers have all the wealth, one could presume it will be handed down to their middle aged children. It will not all disappear so (apart from tax of course) the property and portfolios will benefit those left behind. 

Now if your parents were not hugely independently successful and only live in a council flat on basic pension + NHS + bus pass + reduced property tax they are unlikely to pass material wealth down.  But if they have a detached 4 bed property and timeshare and caravan etc, well someone will benefit in a way that they never did in past generations.

Fretwired

ESBlonde said:

If all the baby boomers have all the wealth, one could presume it will be handed down to their middle aged children. It will not all disappear so (apart from tax of course) the property and portfolios will benefit those left behind. 

Now if your parents were not hugely independently successful and only live in a council flat on basic pension + NHS + bus pass + reduced property tax they are unlikely to pass material wealth down.  But if they have a detached 4 bed property and timeshare and caravan etc, well someone will benefit in a way that they never did in past generations.

Eventually .. I'm in my mid-50s and both my parents are still alive. People are living longer and it won't be too long before the government starts to means test pensioners. Why should someone living in a £750K home they own with a nice pension get a free TV licence and a winter fuel allowance? And more old people are using their wealth to fund their care home costs and lifestyle. One of my mother's friends has just sold her house and is using the proceeds to fund care at a top local care home - annual fees of £40K plus.

I think inheritance tax will have to rise - people are sitting on a fortune in terms of property that they've done nothing to earn. It's simply the scarcity of supply that forces house prices up. We actually have a housing crisis in the UK. We need to build more homes but people are afraid the value of their home will fall so politicians back away from doing anything about it.

What we really need is an economic shift - jobs that pay a living wage, access to affordable housing and free further and higher education - the latter could be paid for with a small NI increase on those who benefit. Let's go back to the 70s ... ;-)

frankus

There's a hamartic "life-script" called pocket-watch. A life script is basically the recurring or pervasive theme of your life and there are quite a few well documented ones.

Pocket-watch takes it's name from an African tradition of a suitor buying a pocket watch in order to convince his future father-in-law that he was responsible and a person of means. It usually took 30 years to pay off the pocket watch. I think part of the reason the name and story was used is because transplanted outside our culture the concept seems ridiculous - who'd do that?!

We buy much more than we need and we work far harder to repay the interest on debts and the threat of loss of status means we are more compliant workers.

Smart alec as this kid is:



He gets one thing right "too many of you adults work to make a living not to make a life".

It is all too easy to be caught in the treadmill and lose years of your life to possessions or a misplaced sense of duty... there is no limit to what humans will sacrifice to obtain a little certainty..

"Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off. "

My Grandpa retired 4 times and the last time killed him - he loved his job; my in-laws both retired at 55 and have been wandering the lake districts for the better part of 15 years now. My parents cannot retire, they didn't save or plan, that said they've never really strived in a workplace either.

My personal plan is to move to managment; then around 60 become a counsellor, yoga teacher, masseur, MA instructor and maybe even guitar teacher. I love all those things and I take classes in them now - I should be pretty good then, if I don't make it I still love the activities.

As soon as Labour started taxing the profits of pension companies it was inevitable there would be pension short-falls.. We lost British Steel the next same year because they couldn't meet their pension obligations.. Hate Thatcher all you like - Blair robbed workers and retired alike and he stole it from the safest place they knew to keep it.

At that point paying into a pension wasn't the wisest investment and hasn't been since 2002.

At present I can still earn a better salary - but that turns around and as I age it will decline, likewise my mortgage will be paid off long before I retire so I'll have some money to invest later... but the people saying "stop waiting" are exactly right. Our disregard for a worklife balance has made us wretches.

Other countries are going nuts for Western culture at a time we're realising it's limitations - we're going to have to forego our stake in global industry and finance if we're going to develop as a society... we're still sacrificed knowledge and understanding to the almighty dollar as our inventions are shrouded in secrecy and copyright until they're found to be marketable...

If the generation of retirees, the school-leavers and the workforce are all feeling that this economic system is failing them - there will be an appropriate change in social values. I hope it's not too great a reaction to the post-war consumerism.

bertie

ESBlonde said:

If all the baby boomers have all the wealth, one could presume it will be handed down to their middle aged children. 

only if their children own cruise liners and travel companies

Fretwired

bertie said:

ESBlonde said:

If all the baby boomers have all the wealth, one could presume it will be handed down to their middle aged children. 

only if their children own cruise liners and travel companies

^
So true ... or car companies ..

Fusionista

I think inheritance tax will have to rise - people are sitting on a fortune in terms of property that they've done nothing to earn. It's simply the scarcity of supply that forces house prices up. We actually have a housing crisis in the UK. We need to build more homes but people are afraid the value of their home will fall so politicians back away from doing anything about it.

What we really need is an economic shift - jobs that pay a living wage, access to affordable housing and free further and higher education - the latter could be paid for with a small NI increase on those who benefit. Let's go back to the 70s ... ;-)

Right and wrong.  House prices have to be set against inflation.  Many home owners have paid for their houses over and above because to pay off a mortgage costs many times the original amount borrowed. It is arguably not worth it (except for the non-financial benefits) even IF house prices keep pace with inflation.  IHT is a tax on savings which have already been taxed once (if not several times) already.  If house prices do not keep up with inflation, you might as well rent (except that logically you would have to pay the owner's losses in your rent), unless of course you enjoy a 'council house' or similar.  People in 'social' housing are of course being massively subsidised by the privately- housed community (let's not quibble about who pays for what - communism doesn't work as has been pointed out by Drew_fx above).  NI is of course income tax by any other name and quite literally a 'tax on jobs,' which makes paying 'a living wage' all the more difficult for employers and entrepreneurs.

Yes we need more houses, but it is the planning system which drives housing scarcity.  However, almost everybody in this country is a NIMBY and few aspire to live in a giant suburb of jerry-built bungalows and chicken shacks, so - a necessary evil?  That said, in case I hadn't made my agreement on this point clear, we should be building more houses.

Finally, you can have a job that pays a living wage if you produce something that someone else is prepared to pay you that amount for.  If you can't then you are sucking at the tit of the 'community'. Somehow we seem to have lost sight of that in our modern 'rights not responsibilities' culture.

I speak of course as that most put-upon and reviled backbone section of the community - an employed white male taxpayer who has still not paid off his mortgage.

chillidoggy

Well, I'm going to have the best fuck-off time I can in retirement, and bollocks to everything else.

If I get there, of course.

Drew_TNBD

chillidoggy said:

Well, I'm going to have the best fuck-off time I can in retirement, and bollocks to everything else.

If I get there, of course.

TTony

frankus said:

He gets one thing right "too many of you adults work to make a living not to make a life".

It is all too easy to be caught in the treadmill and lose years of your life to possessions or a misplaced sense of duty... there is no limit to what humans will sacrifice to obtain a little certainty..

"Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off. "

Very much agree (except that I'm far from sure that we're learning anything at all).

Capitalism & consumerism depend on us "wanting" stuff.  It's what sustains the whole economic and social structure of pretty much every country.  I plead just as guilty as anyone else.

We think that "advancement" comes from science and technology and think that understanding ourselves means mapping DNA.  

But It's a little scary to think about what might happen if we all decided to stop wanting stuff.  And to think about how much knowledge and self-awareness we've lost.

"Happiness is wanting what you have, not having what you want".  

As sung by Sheryl Crow ...

littlegreenman

Drew_fx said:

You owe me 4 minutes of life back! Or a Gratis copy of Melodyne

Fusionista

TTony said:

frankus said:

He gets one thing right "too many of you adults work to make a living not to make a life".

It is all too easy to be caught in the treadmill and lose years of your life to possessions or a misplaced sense of duty... there is no limit to what humans will sacrifice to obtain a little certainty..

"Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off. "

Very much agree (except that I'm far from sure that we're learning anything at all).

Capitalism & consumerism depend on us "wanting" stuff.  It's what sustains the whole economic and social structure of pretty much every country.  I plead just as guilty as anyone else.

We think that "advancement" comes from science and technology and think that understanding ourselves means mapping DNA.  

But It's a little scary to think about what might happen if we all decided to stop wanting stuff.  And to think about how much knowledge and self-awareness we've lost.

"Happiness is wanting what you have, not having what you want".  

As sung by Sheryl Crow ...

Interesting to reflect that life is structured so as to make us 'need' stuff: shelter, water, food, sex, companionship etc.  Question arises when does 'need' become 'want' ? Further, what's wrong with 'wanting' or indeed 'having' ?  Problem arises IMO with those who want but don't have ie the 'have-nots' - they're the ones who foment revolution.

So when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me out.

chillidoggy

When you're young, you have a different view about retirement than when you're 55. I know this because I've been there. At my age it starts getting scary, bits of you start wearing out, or failing, like my kidneys, and the older you get, you start to realise that maybe you should have taken a bit more time to think about retirement. When I retire, I want no worries about money, and all the fuck-off warm comfort I can lay my hands on. Of course, it won't happen like that, but at least I won't be flipping burgers and living in squalor in my dotage.

There are some guys I work with who will be carried out of the door in their coffins, and that's their choice. I enjoy my job most of the time, but I prefer not being at work, and doing more enjoyable things. Which generally cost money.

viz

My grandpa's 91 and he still works.

chillidoggy

So does my mum.

Neil

There is no "one size fits all".  

Some people love their work and are often defined by it so by losing their "identity" they often feel lost and sometimes don't live past retirement.

Others can't wait to pack it all in. It does sound appealing but TBH can often be difficult to fill your days after a year or two. 

I know, I retired at 50.

viz

chillidoggy said:

So does my mum.

I know, Octatonic told me, etc.