Bloody neighbours (or more accurately - their roofer)

WezV

I live in an older semi detached.   Recently my neighbour had a new roof, which joins onto ours.  I can;t actually see my roof from my Garden so didn't really know what had been done.  I had it ll checkced over about a year ago because of its age, my builder said it was fine and should last a while yet.

Last week I had a water patch appear in a bedroom and some wet beams in the loft.  These were directly under the roof valley, not near the join between the two houses, so I didn't assume it was connected to the work that had been done.   I was just about to phone a builder to talk about a valley replacement

then my other neighbour (from now on, the good neighbour) asked today  "are you aware there is still a lot of crap on your roof from when the work was done".

1) The valley is full of old tiles and concrete

2) There are tiles missing from under the ridge

3) We agreed to remove a chimney at the same time the roof was being done... that's the uneven patch towards the other end

I have spoken to them, rather politely and they are going to get the roofers back to take a look - Personally I think it now needs a whole new valley, repairs to the timbers in the loft, and redecoration of the room below - but what can I realistic expect them to do?  and what are the options if they don't play ball.  I want to keep it civil if possible

TTony

It's their roofers who are ultimately responsible for any shoddy work done rather than the neighbours themselves.

If you avoid blaming - or even appearing to blame - the neighbours for the shoddiness of the work, then you should manage to keep things civil with them.

You need to pressure them to pressure their roofers.  How the roofers respond will depend on whether they're a proper company with a reputation (etc) to maintain, or not.  If their work has demonstrably caused damage to your roof timbers and consequentially your ceiling, then their insurance should cover the cost of putting that right.

WezV

Its a proper local company, but mates with my neighbour who is a builder himself. Hopefully that will make it easier rather than more difficult.

Kinda wish I had made more effort to check the work before they left, but the bits off roof I could see looked fine.

Sambostar

That valley looks like a pile of arse.  What's going on with the flashing?  Is it still underneath and lapped on the hidden tiles or just boded and overlaid on top?

It has been windy of late though.  Best keep it civil, but don't drop any buzzwords like wind in though.  Keep it civil before you detonate their car.

WezV

here is a closer look at the valley, where we have just started getting  leaks

Sambostar

What's going on with the ridging on the left as well?  What were the previous tiles?  Is there any flashing under that concrete?  Where is it leaking from?  The ridge?

WezV

The concrete is where they overlaid there new roof over our existing one, it looks a  lot tidier from their side.   I am not happy about that, but it does seem water tight.

Our Valley hasn't been touched, just used as a rubbish chute - it still goes under the tiles on each side.  The valley timber on the inside is pretty damn wet now so I can only assume the tiles have punctured it as they slid down.

They had the new roof because the wind took a few of their tiles with it a few months back.  Ours has always been fine though, and frankly we  couldn't afford to replace it and had no reason to.

WezV

this is the inside of the valley

Budgie

I'd bet that your problem is to do with the pointing where the tiles are overlapped... I've never seen that before. Is there anything else i.e lead flashing where they've overlapped it... If not, my guess is that is where the problem is... There seems to be a gap too at the bottom of the overlap, directly above your valley. It wouldn't take much for water to be forced in there. I'd be spitting feathers if they left my roof in that state.

Dominic

The verge work is  untidy -a bit of mortar dye would have been thoughtful for starters- was the batten on the adjoining roof always higher than yours  ? -as your neighbour is a builder himself he may want to take a closer look - Its very hard to see from the photo but it appears that your neighbour has a new concrete tile roof abutting your clay tile...........I cannot see what is underneath but it may be that the additional weight of concrete tiles is causing flex to the rafters and subsequent sag on your roof causing the valley to become non-weathered - let alone debris strewn -replacement concrete tiles require some additional purlin supports or even a second span -break purlin

 it looks as if the lowest new tile will allow the run- off to roll back around the underside as there is no drip detail or secondary weathering visible in the photo 

WezV

nah, the main roof was all the same level with no obvious join between the two- all original slate.  They had extra reinforcement added in the loft and a lot of new rafters for their concrete tiles.   it goes up and slightly over our tiles.   I was concerned about the pointing but I have been advised its not a unusual solution

I was shocked by that work at the top of the Apex/valley - I don't think my neighbour was too happy  when i showed him that bit.

its all enough to show it has not been done with due care and attention

WezV

so I thought I had got somewhere with this

They came back last Friday and replaced the tiles along the ridge, cleared the valley and re-pointed the bit at the top of the apex.  Still looked sloppy to me but they assured me it wouldn't leak

Its raining.   Its leaking.  

time to get the insurance company involved I think.  So much for trying to sort it amicably.

ICBM

That is an utter cowboy mess of a roofing job.

After a similar dispute with an upstairs neighbour whose leaking shower damaged my flat again after the first time they were supposed to have fixed it, I would say that once it's got beyond the amicable stage, get your solicitor involved. Ask the solicitor to make it abundantly clear that unless they fix the whole thing, properly and to your satisfaction, at their cost, then you will take whatever course of action is necessary to make them do so, and add your costs of doing so to the final bill, which they will be paying.

My neighbour backed down and had the job he should have had done in the first place done...

Sambostar

It really comes down to your neighbour.  You don't get something for nothing.  There are cowboys about but an unwillingness to part with much cash and go for the lowest price possible seems to attract them like bees to honey.  The responsibility fall on your neighbour and his house insurance.  It's not right that you are paying for them wanting to save money or being numpties.

TTony

The trouble with leaks is that the source of the problem isn't always obvious, given water's ability to travel some distance before becoming a visible problem.

They may have patched the area that looked shoddy, and cleaned up the mess that they'd originally left behind, but that might not have been the point of ingress (despite the appearances).  

A solicitor will probably need a professional (builder, surveyor, etc) assessment of the actual cause before taking any further action - you'd need to provide that at your cost, and then try to recover that cost as part of any claim that is made by the solicitor.  

Going the insurance route, depending on the potential cost of an insurance claim, the insurer may well send out an assessor to provide that assessment, and then seek to recover the costs of repair from whoever is at fault (assuming that fault can be proven by the assessment) ... Or they may find that the leak is caused by a problem on your part of the roof and is excluded from your cover by some clause in the small print.

Either way, you need definitive evidence of the source of the leak, its cause, and then the responsibility / liability.

WezV

I am hoping the shoddiness of the work and the way it was left is enough evidence. But I also had the roof assessed 2 years ago after moving in because there was a little leak on the (now removed) chimney flashing.


The other issue is I changed home insurance 2 weeks ago. Do I go to the insurer from when the roof was done, or the insurer from when we found the leak?

Sambostar

If it was my place and I had a mortgage on it, I'd be out there on the scaffold or a ladder at the end of each night while they were doing the work.  Trust no one.

That is a sticky spot for the insurance. Your best bet would probably to get your own reputable and experienced roofer mate in to have a look.  You need to make one fast!  Or get up there on a ladder with a standoff for a closer look.

WezV

We do have an uncle who is a building inspector... Saving that one back.

At the moment I still feel an independent assessment of the work already carried out is the fairest next step. if it is my roof just being old, fair enough. Although I suspect the independent assessment will confirm I have been fucked over

Sambostar

It should really have had a bonded gutter with flashing going under tiles on both sides for completely mismatched thickness tiles, but that is a lot of flashing and work.  Much easier to slap a load of mortar on there

Get in touch with building control and get an inspector out from the Council, that way the neighbour knows it's impartial or use your Uncle, they are not to know and he'll be able to tell you in three seconds.  You have been fucked over, if the timber isn't soft, it's a new leak.

WezV

That the issue, on the valley some of the timber is soft. So we potentially had a slow leak before and I am pretty much willing to pay for a new valley because of that, even though I know its 10 times worse than it was in November last year.  You can pretty clearly see the demarcation between old water damage and new.

But how long is that join between roofs going to last? 5 - 10 years absolute tops.  at some point in that time I will need to replace the join between the whole roof if I want any piece of mind

WezV

Insurance company now involved.

The are sending out an independent assessor to decide if the fault is due to wear and tear, or the recent work.   If it is due to the recent work they will claim against the builders insurance.