EU Referendum Vote - Poll

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

Typical Remain .. short on facts .. plenty of fear  .. car crash interview ..

where's all the links to show the leave campaign embarrassed and unable to justify claims?

I know that the £350m was using a headline figure rather than net, but the £350m figure was real enough - it is the EU's assessment of our membership fee. There are endless interviews in which senior remain campaigners can't answer basic questions

ToneControl

interesting:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/cant-show-decency-jo-coxs-death/

ToneControl

ICBM said:

Some of that is true, but a lot is twisted to present the worst outcomes for remaining and the best for leaving, and there are a lot of unsupported assumptions and a few things that are simply wrong.

Leaving to "regain political independence" for emotive reasons is fine, if that's what you want - just don't then try to justify it by arguments that we'll also be better off.

I'm sure the UK will 'survive' outside the EU. The sky isn't going to fall down. But we are very likely to be worse off, and actually with less real control, since the bulk of our relations will still be with the EU.

To be honest I've become weary with this - constantly having to argue against the exaggerations and outright lies about the EU perpetrated by the likes of Boris Johnson. Read what hugbot posted above.

I just hope most people will listen to what the majority of informed and educated people from scientists to doctors to industrialists and trade unions are saying, and vote to stay in.

you keep returning to assert that I want to leave the EU for emotive reasons. 

I do not

For many years I thought the EEC was a great way to blur nationalism, hoping it would help in Northern Ireland

However now, I can see the EU is a mess, that takes away our democracy. That's not about emotion, it's about democracy.

I refute that anything in my logic is twisted - I'm stating likely outcomes if we remain in the EU - please tell me which are unlikely.

The bulk of our relations will be with the rest of the world, not the EU, the same as now

The largest number of lies has come from George Osborne, I challenge to prove otherwise. Even his own treasury dept have spoken against his deceitful use of their work. His latest budget threat was ludicrously deceitful. I can explain why if you doubt this

You would have been the last person I would have guessed would simply deferring to the opinion of the ruling classes (informed and educated people). I'm informed and educated far too well to accept the lies that have been published by the remain camp

hungrymark

It's interesting to me that so many people seem to be willing to make up their minds based on 'lists of doctors, scientists, trade unionists' etc, rather than trust their own judgment. I don't know which way I'm going to vote (likely, but by no means certainly, out) but I'm ignoring lists of who says what. Both sides have their vested interests and both seem happy to use distortions and lies. I worry that a leave vote will be seen as a vindication of the leave campaign, and that a remain vote will be seen as an endorsement of the EU in its current form. People should separate the issues involved from the personalities of those in the campaigns, but this isn't really happening from what I can tell.

ICBM

I find it worrying and quite shocking how divisive and bitter this whole debate has become - far more so than the Scottish referendum, which you may have thought would be more so given the level of passion among some Scots and the overt 'nationalism' question of it.

I was at the point of not commenting again ever after Jo Cox was murdered (I'm still not sure why the BBC apparently won't use the word), even though it doesn't appear as directly linked as some at first assumed. But I think it is possible that the overall atmosphere may have been at least a trigger.

In fact I think I will go back to leaving it there - saddened at the attitudes of many of my compatriots.

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

where's all the links to show the leave campaign embarrassed and unable to justify claims?

If Leave don't have to validate their claims as you stated earlier, then there is nothing the other side could do which would embarrass them. 

Heartfeltdawn

ICBM said:

I find it worrying and quite shocking how divisive and bitter this whole debate has become - far more so than the Scottish referendum, which you may have thought would be more so given the level of passion among some Scots and the overt 'nationalism' question of it.

I was at the point of not commenting again ever after Jo Cox was murdered (I'm still not sure why the BBC apparently won't use the word), even though it doesn't appear as directly linked as some at first assumed. But I think it is possible that the overall atmosphere may have been at least a trigger.

In fact I think I will go back to leaving it there - saddened at the attitudes of many of my compatriots.

@ICBM I've had some interesting debates with people over the murder of Cox. I don't class it as a political killing in the same way that the death of Andrew Pennington in 2000 wasn't a political killing. When you see people on Twitter saying "If the killer were brown, they'd call him a terrorist", then it makes me want to ram skewers into my head. Level-headed debate is a rarity, polarisation is now incredibly high. 

I don't know anyone who has or will vote Remain who believes Osborne and Cameron. Likewise, those friends I know on the Leave camp aren't doing so because they believe the words pumped out by Matthew Elliott and company. Politicians and spin agents alike are guilty of deception, lies, and obfuscation of intent on both sides. 

hungrymark said: I worry that a leave vote will be seen as a vindication of the leave campaign, and that a remain vote will be seen as an endorsement of the EU in its current form. People should separate the issues involved from the personalities of those in the campaigns, but this isn't really happening from what I can tell.

I had a lengthy debate yesterday with a worker for a large Sunday broadsheet. She dropped me over a copy of the leader that was published today calling for Leave and contrasted it with some recent pieces such as those by Nick Cohen and Patrick Collinson in the Guardian. She summed it up well: it's only been in the last few days that the larger papers have started producing articles that look at the subtle nuances of this referendum. 

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

interesting:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/cant-show-decency-jo-coxs-death/

Douglas Murray calls for some decency over the death of an MP... but then uses that same article about an MP's death to turn some stuff back onto the left, less than a week after he used the murder of a large number of homosexuals to push his anti-Islamic sentiment. 

Decency? What decency? 

Fretwired

@ICBM .. I could have perhaps been persuaded to vote Remain until the group started a campaign of fear, misinformation and threats backed by a collection of self-interested parties wheeled on to support the party line. It's what I would expect in North Korea or Soviet era Russia. It culminated with Osborne threatening to punish people with higher taxes if they voted to leave. When Leave is pushed to back up their most outlandish claims they fail miserably and merely trot out a list of the great and the good who support their view.

The Leave campaign is not without fault and Farage's poster is disgraceful. The only thing it has going for it is the return of sovereignty to our parliament. And anyone in favour of wanting to do that is branded a Little Englander by the liberal elite. Britain will be diminished in the world and will have little influence - if that means no more wars or bombing people then I vote for it.

I'm waiting for Polly Toynbee to demand that all those that vote to Leave should be removed from the electoral roll as they can't be trusted to vote the right way. That's how nuts this campaign has been.

Myranda

On an emotional level I feel I cannot agree with the Brexit brigade - led by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage ... how can I possibly agree with them, on anything.

If the three of them collectively said the sky is blue and rain is wet I'd feel compelled to check... 

When they're caught in a mistake (if we're being generous, it's likely just an outright lie) they stamp their little feet and yell "it's troo, you're wrong" even when confronted by evidence... 

The remain camp aren't exactly saints or paragons of believability but... surely the Brexit campaigns could have picked anyone to be their spokespeople ... 

ToneControl

Myranda said:

On an emotional level I feel I cannot agree with the Brexit brigade - led by Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage ... how can I possibly agree with them, on anything.

If the three of them collectively said the sky is blue and rain is wet I'd feel compelled to check... 

When they're caught in a mistake (if we're being generous, it's likely just an outright lie) they stamp their little feet and yell "it's troo, you're wrong" even when confronted by evidence... 

The remain camp aren't exactly saints or paragons of believability but... surely the Brexit campaigns could have picked anyone to be their spokespeople ... 

The polls show that the public believe them much more than they believe Cameron and Osborne

see Robert Peston today:

55%+ believed in the £350m a week EU cost claim

only 17% believed the £4300 worse off per household claim

To be honest, the biggest lies have come from the remain side, so it's no wonder the public have stopped trusting them

I agree though, the chief Leave campaigners aren't ideal - although BoJo is more popular than many realise, I suspect

JezWynd

Fretwired said:

@ICBM .. I could have perhaps been persuaded to vote Remain until the group started a campaign of fear, misinformation and threats backed by a collection of self-interested parties wheeled on to support the party line. It's what I would expect in North Korea or Soviet era Russia. It culminated with Osborne threatening to punish people with higher taxes if they voted to leave. When Leave is pushed to back up their most outlandish claims they fail miserably and merely trot out a list of the great and the good who support their view....

That was the tipping point for me. I'd been wavering over which way to go but after his crass bully boy tactics I went with an out vote. I don't want the EU to fail, it's given us many good things but the Brussels bureaucracy needs to be reminded that they can't have everything their own way and I don't think we can keep on accepting migrants as we have been doing up until now.

The argument that migrants are doing jobs that no-one wants smacks of the creation of a serf underclass forced to work for super low wages on zero hour contracts while living in overcrowded accommodation. None of that bodes well for the future imo.

ToneControl

here's the Leave side's secret agent in action:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/jun/19/jeremy-corbyn-no-upper-limit-to-immigration-video

seriously, he makes the points I have - the destitute corners of the EU (Greece, etc) need massive injections of cash to rebuild their economies (i.e. taxpayers money going from the UK to Greece), or the people there will migrate to wealthier EU countries. 

I doubt he was supposed to say that though

daveww

We're all migrants.  Just ask Tom Cruise.

Myranda

One thing I do see a lot in comments is that when we leave we'll just re-negotiate our trade deals and no one will lose any money...

Without the EU wont 43% of our exports be 20%+ more expensive? Either importers will go elsewhere or UK exporters will just have to sack staff to keep the prices down... 

I suspect a lot of people will be unemployed just-in-case rich people MIGHT lose money... that's my biggest reason for wanting to remain. Rich people don't like losing profit... and sacking people is super fast cost cutting... 

ICBM

Fretwired said:

@ICBM .. I could have perhaps been persuaded to vote Remain until the group started a campaign of fear, misinformation and threats backed by a collection of self-interested parties wheeled on to support the party line.

I fully accept that's what Cameron, Osborne and co are doing. I'm a bit surprised that you can't see the same sort of thing from the other side. Leave is doing exactly the same with fear, misinformation and threats about what the EU is, wants and will do - much of which is outright untrue.

It's not the politicians who you need to listen to. As for "listening to the ruling classes", like scientists, doctors, industrialists and trade unionists - odd definition of the ruling classes, but whatever - they are the experts in their own fields. I'm more than happy to accept that I don't know as much as they do. The majority of the more educated and informed people in this country are in favour of staying in. Not all of them, no - but a clear majority.

The people who are most in favour of Leaving are the self-motivated politicians like Boris Johnson - he's helped set the tone for the debate from the start as hugbot pointed out. He lied through his teeth about not deciding whether to support Remain or Leave - until he reckoned it was worth the gamble to try to unseat his old rival Dave. And Farage - who has now shown his true colours.

Sad that so many are taken in by them.

And I will leave it there now.

Fretwired

Myranda said:

Without the EU wont 43% of our exports be 20%+ more expensive? Either importers will go elsewhere or UK exporters will just have to sack staff to keep the prices down... 

No. At worst we would be under WTO rules which have variable rates .. for example cars would attract a 9.8% tariff other goods a 2% tariff but wine I think is 40%. This would be a two-way street so German cars would be 9.8% more expensive and French wine a whopping 40% more expensive. I'm convinced we'd get a a zero tariff deal as the EU won't want to damage itself. The question is what we'd have to agree to in return.

I'm also convinced that a vote to leave may not result in the UK actually leaving

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

The polls show that the public believe them much more than they believe Cameron and Osborne

see Robert Peston today:

55%+ believed in the £350m a week EU cost claim

only 17% believed the £4300 worse off per household claim

To be honest, the biggest lies have come from the remain side, so it's no wonder the public have stopped trusting them

I agree though, the chief Leave campaigners aren't ideal - although BoJo is more popular than many realise, I suspect

Or another poll analysis:

55% believe some shit that isn't true. 

17% believe some shit that isn't true. 

Verdict: lots of people believe shit that isn't true. 

Evilmags

Before the virtue signallers go vote remain I suggest they take a look at the ruination of southern Europe

Modulus_Amps

ICBM said:

I just hope most people will listen to what the majority of informed and educated people from scientists to doctors to industrialists and trade unions are saying, and vote to stay in.

Problem is in actuality these people are saying many things, all conflicting. just like the Scottish referendum this is not a question about education or knowledge, probably more about perspective.

I think it is easy for white collar worker earning well, working alongside EU immigrants in similar positions to be pro the EU, (I would have fitted that description nicely a year ago by the way). But discounting the views of the factory workers because they don't know better is somewhat naive considering that they are the ones who have probably been affected most negatively by the post 2000 changes in the EU.