Deliberately timed or Coincidence?

digitalscream

snakemanStoo said:

digitalscream said:

Fretwired said:

digitalscream said:

@Fretwired - I'll dig the stats out later, little busy right now. However, I very much doubt anything will change in terms of immigration if we leave - to be part of the EEC, there's an overwhelming chance that we'll have to accept free movement.

@digitalscream .. I agree no change on immigrants. I've seen various stats. I think Remain and Leave have agreed that migrants are now cost neutral. Both Cameron and Farage have said as much on the campaign.

I was just considering that - it's the first time you and I have agreed on anything to do with the referendum.

Actually, thinking about it...what happens if it's a draw?

Penalty shoot out?

The first time in history that both sides have lost a penalty shootout.

siremoon

There's surely a difference between coming here, earning money and sending it back and coming here, getting benefits and sending that back?  The former seems fine to me, the latter less so.

digitalscream

siremoon said:

There's surely a difference between coming here, earning money and sending it back and coming here, getting benefits and sending that back?  The former seems fine to me, the latter less so.

Only in terms of the fact that one involves working for it and the other doesn't. In terms of the national economy...no, there's no difference at all.

ESBlonde

Auf Wiedersehen Pet.

It's OK for the brits to do it, but when the foreigners do it, by gum we get upset!

I know the argument about our people work etc...but all those ex pat pensioners in Spain are getting free healthcare which is arguably (statistics vary) paid for by poor Spain.

It's been happening for two centuries now, the Irish Navigators built the canals, then the railroads and then the roads. They built the airfields and docks during the war and the houses after it.

It's possibly a little late to get upset about the idea.

Dominic

I have to point out that the' Polish' builder is a misnomer - the vast majority are highly unskilled labourers -due to the migration drain there is a severe shortage of tradesmen in Poland and Baltic states -consequently a good tradesman can earn pretty well in Warsaw or other large Polish cities. A lot of them are farm-boys from the valleys who have nailed a barn door together and re-invented themselves as a carpenter/joiner.Of course,there are some very skilled tradesmen from Poland but not the majority.            

The skilled elements generally come from Lithuania,Czech republic, Slovakia ,Estonia and Romania ( latter are especially good tilers,stone fixers,render and plasterers ) - because of the E European accent many people assume they are Polish . 

 However the one thing they all have in common,is a will to work,a positive and workmanlike attitude and a can-do mentality.

It amuses me how people also assume that they are cheaper than English Tradesmen -they were 12 years ago but certainly not in the last 7 years -the difference is that they get 3 times as much work covered in a day.On the larger sites tradesmen are only really interested in price-work not wages -this does not apply to labourers -and they earn very well indeed as befits their industrious nature.If they were not there the work would simply not get done.

   What is also now more relevant in these days of easy inter-european logistics is how much off-site fabrication is done in E Europe.

Almost all big joinery,fenestration,cabinetry,glazing,steel pre-fab frames,kitchens etc are ordered from Poland,Lithuania,former E German Towns and Czech ........turn-around lead times are fast,quality generally good and labour costs considerably lower. On big sites you see E European artics being lined up by the banksmen for deliveries all day long.

quarky

Dominic said:

but anybody who thinks that opting out will reduce migration is very naive ...........

Why is that?

Fretwired

Dominic said:

I have to point out that the' Polish' builder is a misnomer - the vast majority are highly unskilled labourers -due to the migration drain there is a severe shortage of tradesmen in Poland and Baltic states -consequently a good tradesman can earn pretty well in Warsaw or other large Polish cities.

They have to have a recognised qualification to do plumbing - you are right about labourers though, but without them things wouldn't get built. This country has a serious skills shortage as we don't train enough of our own people. A good friend of mine is the MD of a recruitment company - she has loads of jobs and no candidates.

Dominic

No requirement is required for plumbing or bathroom fitting - beyond simple CSCS

You are confusing pipe-fitting etc with GAS FITTING which requires GAS SAFE (FORMER CORGI) registration at various levels which are endorsed according to training requirement rather like the classifications on a driving licence.

ennspek

There are dodgy migrants. There are dodgy people who aren't migrants. There are dodgy people living in other countries.
They're all just people.

octatonic

Fretwired said:

Dominic said:

I have to point out that the' Polish' builder is a misnomer - the vast majority are highly unskilled labourers -due to the migration drain there is a severe shortage of tradesmen in Poland and Baltic states -consequently a good tradesman can earn pretty well in Warsaw or other large Polish cities.

They have to have a recognised qualification to do plumbing - you are right about labourers though, but without them things wouldn't get built. This country has a serious skills shortage as we don't train enough of our own people. A good friend of mine is the MD of a recruitment company - she has loads of jobs and no candidates.

I've talked with my Polish builder about this too.

His attitude is people in the UK don't try to figure things out for themselves or have a go.

Or when then do they bugger it up by not doing it properly.

He isn't a trained builder- he's actually an engineer- has a degree in civil engineering, but his dad was a builder so growing up he was made to help his dad out.

Most of the stuff I get done needs grunt work- so just labourers are fine.

When plastering or tiling I have 3 specific guys I ask for.

The tiling guy is amazing , everything is always perfect- he left to strike out on his own and is doing really well.

digitalscream

octatonic said:

I've talked with my Polish builder about this too.

His attitude is people in the UK don't try to figure things out for themselves or have a go.

Or when then do they bugger it up by not doing it properly.

He isn't a trained builder- he's actually an engineer- has a degree in civil engineering, but his dad was a builder so growing up he was made to help his dad out.

Most of the stuff I get done needs grunt work- so just labourers are fine.

When plastering or tiling I have 3 specific guys I ask for.

The tiling guy is amazing , everything is always perfect- he left to strike out on his own and is doing really well.

The bass player in my old band said something similar - "You English are so lazy, most things you pay people for don't need any skill, you could figure it out instead of watching TV or staring at Facebook".

To be fair, he was describing me perfectly, and the shame of it was what nudged me to redecorate the hall, stairs and landing and lay a new carpet.

randella

digitalscream said:

octatonic said:

I've talked with my Polish builder about this too.

His attitude is people in the UK don't try to figure things out for themselves or have a go.

Or when then do they bugger it up by not doing it properly.

He isn't a trained builder- he's actually an engineer- has a degree in civil engineering, but his dad was a builder so growing up he was made to help his dad out.

Most of the stuff I get done needs grunt work- so just labourers are fine.

When plastering or tiling I have 3 specific guys I ask for.

The tiling guy is amazing , everything is always perfect- he left to strike out on his own and is doing really well.

The bass player in my old band said something similar - "You English are so lazy, most things you pay people for don't need any skill, you could figure it out instead of watching TV or staring at Facebook".

To be fair, he was describing me perfectly, and the shame of it was what nudged me to redecorate the hall, stairs and landing and lay a new carpet.

Fair play to you then, I'll have a crack at most things but laying carpet's a bloody awful job.

digitalscream

randella said:

Fair play to you then, I'll have a crack at most things but laying carpet's a bloody awful job.

Honestly, I'm not sure I've forgiven him for it yet :P

scrumhalf

My plumber loves Polish/Eastern European plumbers.

People get a quote from him and then one from the P/EE plumber, who is cheaper, and who ends up getting the job. It gets fucked up, the number they call to get the P/EE plumber no longer responds and he gets a call in a panic to fix something that costs more to fix than the original job he quoted for.

octatonic

digitalscream said:

octatonic said:

I've talked with my Polish builder about this too.

His attitude is people in the UK don't try to figure things out for themselves or have a go.

Or when then do they bugger it up by not doing it properly.

He isn't a trained builder- he's actually an engineer- has a degree in civil engineering, but his dad was a builder so growing up he was made to help his dad out.

Most of the stuff I get done needs grunt work- so just labourers are fine.

When plastering or tiling I have 3 specific guys I ask for.

The tiling guy is amazing , everything is always perfect- he left to strike out on his own and is doing really well.

The bass player in my old band said something similar - "You English are so lazy, most things you pay people for don't need any skill, you could figure it out instead of watching TV or staring at Facebook".

To be fair, he was describing me perfectly, and the shame of it was what nudged me to redecorate the hall, stairs and landing and lay a new carpet.

I learned quite a bit from this guy- I do most of the work around my own house now.

I don't do plumbing or electric, but most other things I'll have a go at.

Good exercise too.

Fretwired

My Polish plumber works for a local British company .. he studied plumbing in Poland at college and worked there for quite a few years. He fixed some dodgy plumbing done by British bathroom contractors who installed some bathrooms for me.

As an aside the funniest encounter I had with a foreign worker was when my Bosch dishwasher packed up. It was under warranty so I called Bosch who duly sent round an engineer. A knock at the door and there was a smart looking guy from Bosch - " I'm your Bosch engineer from Stuttgart " .. he was indeed German .. I said " that's a long way to come to fix a dishwasher " .. he stared blankly at me .. no sense of humour.

He couldn't fix the dishwasher - I thought he was going to cry -  a lot of muttering in German. Bosch sent another engineer who was a small northerner who fixed it in 10 minutes - I told him about the German engineer and he laughed. Apparently the guy was on a fast track graduate path and had to do some work in the field. Apparently he was dreadful ..

thomasross20

Foreign woman below me gets housing benefit etc and she has a partner, but they don't live together. He gets separate benefit, so total benefits are greater. It's not only foreigners that do this.

Dominic

scrumhalf said:

My plumber loves Polish/Eastern European plumbers.

People get a quote from him and then one from the P/EE plumber, who is cheaper, and who ends up getting the job. It gets fucked up, the number they call to get the P/EE plumber no longer responds and he gets a call in a panic to fix something that costs more to fix than the original job he quoted for.

Sorry -that's what he tells you .........its the default pitch of many an English tradesman and its complete Bollocks

firstly there is unlikely to be any price difference

the Eeuropean actually turns up

the E european doesn't stand there sucking his teeth,whistling and looking for extra problems

#the Eeuropean doesn't want tea a chat about football and to slag -off English plumber/builders

the Eeuropean doesn't give you the heath and safety bullshit reasons for not doing the job

the E european doesn't have to go off for parts and comes back 3 hours later after a chat about football and the Mrs / his mate with the lads at the builder merchant

the E european doesn't throw his tools into a bag at 5 pm with only 10 minutes work left to finish saying he'll be back on Thursday which turns into Friday 

The E european doesn't do a no show on the Friday ( because he 'had a row with the Mrs ' )

The E European is generally no worse at coming back to fix a mistake than the Englishman

Sorry but English Tradesmen only have themselves to blame and they are not being undercut as they like to think -they are being out-worked !!!!!

digitalscream

thomasross20 said:

Foreign woman below me gets housing benefit etc and she has a partner, but they don't live together. He gets separate benefit, so total benefits are greater. It's not only foreigners that do this.

Aye; I know a family with three generations living in a 5-bedroom council house, all on benefits (declared at different addresses, mind). They keep all their savings in cash so as not to affect the means-testing, and they breed exotic parrots too (which sell for about £800 per bird). None of them have worked in the last 20 years, but they've almost got enough cash between them to buy the house outright.

The problem isn't immigrants in this regard, it's the benefits system itself. They're nasty bastards (caused all sorts of problems for my family), so I reported them - both for the benefits fraud and the animal breeding (not allowed in council properties). What have the authorities done about it? Absolutely nothing.

Yes, I'm just ranting at this point. Grrrrr.

scrumhalf

Dominic said:

scrumhalf said:

My plumber loves Polish/Eastern European plumbers.

People get a quote from him and then one from the P/EE plumber, who is cheaper, and who ends up getting the job. It gets fucked up, the number they call to get the P/EE plumber no longer responds and he gets a call in a panic to fix something that costs more to fix than the original job he quoted for.

Sorry -that's what he tells you .........its the default pitch of many an English tradesman and its complete Bollocks

firstly there is unlikely to be any price difference

the Eeuropean actually turns up

the E european doesn't stand there sucking his teeth,whistling and looking for extra problems

#the Eeuropean doesn't want tea a chat about football and to slag -off English plumber/builders

the Eeuropean doesn't give you the heath and safety bullshit reasons for not doing the job

the E european doesn't have to go off for parts and comes back 3 hours later after a chat about football and the Mrs / his mate with the lads at the builder merchant

the E european doesn't throw his tools into a bag at 5 pm with only 10 minutes work left to finish saying he'll be back on Thursday which turns into Friday 

The E european doesn't do a no show on the Friday ( because he 'had a row with the Mrs ' )

The E European is generally no worse at coming back to fix a mistake than the Englishman

Sorry but English Tradesmen only have themselves to blame and they are not being undercut as they like to think -they are being out-worked !!!!!

Actually, it's not bollocks. I say this from the point of view of knowing him for 40-odd years, and knowing his father who was my parents' plunber going back to the 50s. He has more work than he can handle and would have no reason to lie to me.

Unless, of course, you know him as well and he's told you a completely different story. Somehow, I doubt it.