Can we set up a vote of no confidence in the FA?

lloyd

Bidley said:

Snap said:

I don't think we hate England. I just think we get so fed up at them underachieving, so often. Those players should perform better at a tournament. JUst look at what teams made up of lower league players deliver: as in Wales, Iceland for example.

The difference is that teams like Wales and Iceland are playing without fear. They don't give a shit if they lose; qualifying is a massive achievement for them, so anything more is a bonus.

English players know that one wrong move will land them with the wrath of the nation on their backs. Listen to how many armchair fans berate them for being overpaid this, and useless that. Nobody in this country backs the national team like they back their clubs. A fan will defend his club against anything; that same fan will pour scorn on the England team at the earliest possible opportunity.

Until we actually support our national team, we'll never get anywhere. We've been gash since Euro 96, and we've had umpteen players and managers since then.

I think that's pushing it a bit. They're in a no lose situation for sure, but to say they don't give a shit is a bit much. they're professional footballers that will honestly believe they have a chance in every game they play-if you don't think that, you don't get too far as a pro sportsman. Even if your thinking is they need an off day and all of us have to play our best game ever, they'll still be going on that pitch thinking they've got a chance of pulling a result.

Thing is it boils down to this: England think they're an Italy, Germany or Spain, while their recent results show them to be more of a Turkey, Russia or Czech Republic.

They probably occupy the ground in between those in fairness.

lloyd

Hodgson's press conference yesterday was fucking embarrassing too. 

Bidley

 

lloyd said:

Bidley said:

Snap said:

I don't think we hate England. I just think we get so fed up at them underachieving, so often. Those players should perform better at a tournament. JUst look at what teams made up of lower league players deliver: as in Wales, Iceland for example.

The difference is that teams like Wales and Iceland are playing without fear. They don't give a shit if they lose; qualifying is a massive achievement for them, so anything more is a bonus.

English players know that one wrong move will land them with the wrath of the nation on their backs. Listen to how many armchair fans berate them for being overpaid this, and useless that. Nobody in this country backs the national team like they back their clubs. A fan will defend his club against anything; that same fan will pour scorn on the England team at the earliest possible opportunity.

Until we actually support our national team, we'll never get anywhere. We've been gash since Euro 96, and we've had umpteen players and managers since then.

I think that's pushing it a bit. They're in a no lose situation for sure, but to say they don't give a shit is a bit much. they're professional footballers that will honestly believe they have a chance in every game they play-if you don't think that, you don't get too far as a pro sportsman. Even if your thinking is they need an off day and all of us have to play our best game ever, they'll still be going on that pitch thinking they've got a chance of pulling a result.

Thing is it boils down to this: England think they're an Italy, Germany or Spain, while their recent results show them to be more of a Turkey, Russia or Czech Republic.

They probably occupy the ground in between those in fairness.

That's what I meant, they're fearless. I meant 'don't give a fuck' as in they don't care who they're matched against, they'll have a go and give 100%.

lloyd

Ah. As you were.

Snap

the England team are very well supported, bleeding thousands go to every game at Wembley and abroad.

playing without fear? Weight of expectations? Overburdened by the expectations of a nation???

SHITE.

If that's the case, they all need to man up.

These are professional footballers, playing in one of the top leagues in the world, well accustomed to pressure and expectation. If they can't handle that, get the chuff out of the team and let someone else with a pair have a go.

I absolutely don't agree with that. I think this is a red herring.

chrispy108

There are some fantastic people working at the FA, but sadly they are doing their jobs with their hands tied behind their backs by a load of old men who don't want anything to change.

They fight to keep control of English football, despite not having much due to the growth of the Premier League, but go about it in entirely the wrong way.

As for the issues with the team, I don't buy it being "weight of expectations" or anything, they look nervous due to not knowing what to do and team selection.

I'd have a set of rules for a national team: Only players who are fit and currently playing, in their positions. No one makes their debut in a qualifier or a tournament.Pick a formation and a style and stick to it. Train properly (including set pieces - we've been shit at defending them for years). It's not rocket science!

lloyd

Snap said:

the England team are very well supported, bleeding thousands go to every game at Wembley and abroad.

playing without fear? Weight of expectations? Overburdened by the expectations of a nation???

SHITE.

If that's the case, they all need to man up.

These are professional footballers, playing in one of the top leagues in the world, well accustomed to pressure and expectation. If they can't handle that, get the chuff out of the team and let someone else with a pair have a go.

I absolutely don't agree with that. I think this is a red herring.

So human beings can't have human emotions because they get paid a lot? That's bollocks. First off playing for your country is different to playing for your club. Second if sportsmen don't feel emotion/pressure call it what you will, why do every single team sport team have a better record when playing at home? Is that coincidence? Of course you could say that the referee maybe goes easier on them, but that backs up my point further-a professional ref being paid a lot, who is used to big atmospheres should be totally neutral. Why did Messi miss his penalty in the Copa America final? Because he's shit, or because there's pressure on him to score....you (not you but you know) can't want your players to both show emotion and to be robots on the pitch. You say to them to let someone with a pair to have ago but there's not a pro footballer out there that won't feel some kind of pressure and have that affect them in some way-The Messi example above and Ronaldo has missed his last 4 penalties for Portugal. Those are the two best players on the planet and you couldn't accuse them of having no balls.

Bidley

What Lloyd said.

The fact is we're seeing the same performance, from different players and different coaching staff.

I've done quite a bit of driving recently, and I have Talksport on, and every day this week, 95% of the time is bitching and moaning about England.

Apparently Roy, the players, the FA, the clubs, the coaching staff, the medical staff, the hotel the team stayed in, the training camp are all to blame. The amount of contradiction is also a pisstake.

People saying Roy is a soft touch and all that. Capello was a hard bastard, and we all blamed that for the team not playing well either.

One thing that seems constant, is that all the best national teams have a core that play together for their club. Italy have a Juventus core, Germany have a Bayern core, Spain have/had a Barca core. The England team, by contrast, may have a few Spurs players and a few Liverpool, but there aren't any partnerships or understandings there. Part of the problem with international football is that you don't get enough time to forge those relationships.

So I think there needs to be some sort of cap on wages, to discourage PL teams from just throwing money at a top player from abroad. Work needs to be done from the ground up, not just whinge about the manager after every tournament.

chrispy108

Totally disagree Bidley. Iceland have 23 players from 22 clubs. Germany from 15 clubs, Spain from 15 clubs.

Ours came from 10, and one of those is Burnley for the third keeper. All of ours play in the same league, that's not true of anyone else. 

We don't train properly, it's visible from the way we play. Not having enough time is the same problem everyone else has. Iceland manage to play as a team, why can't we?

Not sure about your solution either. How does our England squad playing with/against half the Championship every week help them?

Bidley

chrispy108 said:

Totally disagree Bidley. Iceland have 23 players from 22 clubs. Germany from 15 clubs, Spain from 15 clubs.

I'm talking starting lineups, not squads.

You're thinking short term. I'm talking about youngsters getting the chance to break into the first team and getting more experience at the highest level. It won't happen overnight.

Of course, we've never had any other manager apart from Roy, have we? So getting someone else in is definitely the key to success.

scrumhalf

We have mistrusted skilled players in thic country for ages. It's the hard man over the fancy dan every time.

We want everyone to run their arses off. It's nonsense. The ball can move faster than any player, and when played accurately by a player in total command of his trade it does damage.

It is inbelievable that some players are paid a fortune yet use one of their legs for standing on. I say this as a fan of Spurs, who paid £30m for Erik Lamela whose left foot is non-league class. George Best used to do extra training so that it didn't matter which foot was in control of the ball. Dave Mackay, a half-back, did the same, and held the record for Spurs in training by volleying a ball against a wall then volleying it back without the ball touching the ground, etc. He did that 36 times. With an old-style ball.

We have players who have insufficient skill and are over-remunerated. And nowadays, with the managers standing in the "techincal area" (what a stupid name) they never have the chance to do anything that the manager hasn't screamed at them.

chrispy108

Bidley said:

chrispy108 said:

Totally disagree Bidley. Iceland have 23 players from 22 clubs. Germany from 15 clubs, Spain from 15 clubs.

I'm talking starting lineups, not squads.

You're thinking short term. I'm talking about youngsters getting the chance to break into the first team and getting more experience at the highest level. It won't happen overnight.

Of course, we've never had any other manager apart from Roy, have we? So getting someone else in is definitely the key to success.

In the round of 16 starting lineups:

England - 5 teams

Iceland - 11

Italy - 7

Spain - 8

Germany - 8

Want to come up with some more excuses?

No, I'm not thinking short term, but long term, I don't see how lowering the quality of our top league improves the national team. We only need 30 decent players at a time.

I'm not saying that the manager isn't an issue, far from it, I'm hammering him: "We don't train properly, it's visible from the way we play."

lloyd

Thing is it's not any one thing is it?

Things that I think have affected English teams over the years, in no particular order:

Poor selection-names over form and shoehorning players into unfamiliar positions

Media/fan pressure

Lack of players playing abroad

Poor coaching at youth levels-leading to producing less technical players in favour of physical ones

Increasing foreign players/managers in England

Overhyping the EPL

Bad luck-penalties are lotteries, bad decision in 1998 for Cambpells goal etc

Picking the wrong manager-any number of recent coaches have been the "wrong man" was there any person in England happy with Hodgson?

Combine all these things and you get an average team.

I've said a few times, but England are a QF/SF team and no more, they've underperformed slightly IMO over the last 30 years, but not by much.

Bidley

chrispy108 said:

Bidley said:

chrispy108 said:

Totally disagree Bidley. Iceland have 23 players from 22 clubs. Germany from 15 clubs, Spain from 15 clubs.

I'm talking starting lineups, not squads.

You're thinking short term. I'm talking about youngsters getting the chance to break into the first team and getting more experience at the highest level. It won't happen overnight.

Of course, we've never had any other manager apart from Roy, have we? So getting someone else in is definitely the key to success.

In the round of 16 starting lineups:

England - 5 teams

Iceland - 11

Italy - 7

Spain - 8

Germany - 8

Want to come up with some more excuses?

Want to look at the relevant facts?

Italy - 4 Juventus players

Spain - 4 Barca players

Germany - 4 Bayern players

Etc

You're not reading what I'm posting. I didn't say all the big teams have players that ALL play for the same club. Of course the England starting XI had 5 Spurs players, but they came 3rd in the PL. Hardly pedigree stuff. It's just a theory.

I'm saying the manager isn't an issue, I know full well you're hammering him. Do try and keep up. We've had umpteen managers and players, and the same performance. If you think simply changing the manager will transform English national football, you're delusional.

Perhaps you should get the job?

chrispy108

I just don't buy the argument, maybe it would be the difference between being elite and great, but it's not the difference between being a functional team and the shit I watched this tournament. Look at the way the team play, no organisation from open play or set pieces, it's honestly coaching 101 to be able to put out an organised competitive team.

I never said changing the manager will fix everything, but it's clearly an issue. I hammered the whole FA too

I don't buy the lack of English players argument. How does Dele Alli basically playing against Derby, Birmingham and Nottingham Forest week in week out make him a better player?

Bidley

The argument is that if the clubs can't throw money at players, they'll have to throw it at grassroots and their academies. I can't see that as being negative.

The problem clearly lies deeper than management and team selection. We've had a while selection of different coaches, players, tactics, the lot. Spain underachieved tournament after tournament on the 90s, and invested heavily in grassroots, and it paid off!

chrispy108

They also hit a "golden generation", the same as we had and wasted due to selection/coaching.

I've read the FA report (http://www.thefa.com/~/media/files/pdf/england/the-fa-chairmans-england-commission-report.ashx) on increasing England players in the Prem, and I don't buy it. Throwing money at young players doesn't really make them better.

Throwing money at academies isn't the answer either. The EPPP has had no real effect on youth football in England.

Spain hit a golden generation, with the right manager to exploit it. We had ours and wasted it with mis-selection and coaching.