Chris Boardman's mum killed in cycling collision

TheBigDipper

I'm a cyclist, motorcyclist and car driver. 

We'll find out what happened to Mrs Boardman in due course, I'm sure. Speculating is just that.

But, as the people looking at this thread probably hves a view, can I hijack slightly?

Where I live (Christchurch) we have a lot of cycle paths or shared cycle/pedestrian paths next to busy, narrow roads. I use them when I'm cycling - it's safer. Yet...  I'm often driving or motorcycling along these roads and come across cyclists using the road (which is their right, cycle lanes aren't compulsory). The effect is motor traffic slows down considerably in order to get past on what is quite a narrow road already, and then often executes a dangerous overtake in the wrong place.

Other cyclists who don't use the cycle path in these situations. Why not? I don't understand. 

CabbageCat

JohnnyPlectrum said:

lloyd said:

JohnnyPlectrum said:

I can't help thinking it's a war out there - I've really never known anything quite like it and it seems to be getting worse.
I don't think I go for a ride these days without experiencing some sort of incident, in most of which the cyclist is blameless.
I'm not sure it's the naughty, pavement dwelling, red-light jumpers that are being mown down though - it's the serious cyclists.


Can you back any of that up or is it just your feelings on the matter based on your own experiences?

There's twats on both sides of the coin, some days the good ones will be the bad ones and vice versa, sometimes the twats are just normal people making mistakes.

Surely my feelings based on my own experiences IS backing it up?

It does back up what you "can't help thinking", yes. But low sample observational, second-hand evidence isn't great for giving an accurate picture.

For example, I personally think it's safer that ever to be a road-user nowadays. When I started driving 25-odd years ago I felt that people drove more aggressively than they do now. I very rarely get cross with other road-users. That might, however, simply be because I've mellowed in my old age or I'm driving less like a dick that I did as a kid so people are treating me better. The stats would back me up but there are so many other factors that they could be easily countered.

crunchman

TheBigDipper said:

I'm a cyclist, motorcyclist and car driver. 

We'll find out what happened to Mrs Boardman in due course, I'm sure. Speculating is just that.

But, as the people looking at this thread probably hves a view, can I hijack slightly?

Where I live (Christchurch) we have a lot of cycle paths or shared cycle/pedestrian paths next to busy, narrow roads. I use them when I'm cycling - it's safer. Yet...  I'm often driving or motorcycling along these roads and come across cyclists using the road (which is their right, cycle lanes aren't compulsory). The effect is motor traffic slows down considerably in order to get past on what is quite a narrow road already, and then often executes a dangerous overtake in the wrong place.

Other cyclists who don't use the cycle path in these situations. Why not? I don't understand. 

I normally avoid shared use paths like the plague.  Pedestrians are an absolute menace.  Most of them are also completely unsuitable for anything over 12-15mph.

The other problem with a lot of cycle paths is what happens to them at junctions and roundabouts.  They normally disappear, or you have to give way to the traffic on the main carriageway.  If you stay on the main carriageway then you have priority.

Also, in winter the cycle lane won't get gritted and may be icy.

I don't know the specifics of your lanes but there is one near me on the A316 that is a complete joke.  Every time it comes to a T-junction you are supposed to give way on a bike.  There is a stretch there were I think you have to give way something like 23 times on the cycle lane and once on the main carriageway.
Take a look at it on here until you get to the roundabout going into Richmond - where you get tipped off onto the main carriageway anyway:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sandycombe+Rd,+Richmond+TW9+2EP,+UK/@51.4688809,-0.2773519,3a,75y,260.14h,91.98t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sx9qK7SkXiy11LCivAGI90w!2e0!6s//geo3.ggpht.com/cbk?panoid=x9qK7SkXiy11LCivAGI90w&output=thumbnail&cb_client=search.TACTILE.gps&thumb=2&w=392&h=106&yaw=77.113281&pitch=0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x48760dd4ac0fdde9:0xc97574924227fe7f!8m2!3d51.472926!4d-0.286707?hl=en

JohnnyPlectrum

CabbageCat said:

JohnnyPlectrum said:

lloyd said:

JohnnyPlectrum said:

I can't help thinking it's a war out there - I've really never known anything quite like it and it seems to be getting worse.
I don't think I go for a ride these days without experiencing some sort of incident, in most of which the cyclist is blameless.
I'm not sure it's the naughty, pavement dwelling, red-light jumpers that are being mown down though - it's the serious cyclists.


Can you back any of that up or is it just your feelings on the matter based on your own experiences?

There's twats on both sides of the coin, some days the good ones will be the bad ones and vice versa, sometimes the twats are just normal people making mistakes.

Surely my feelings based on my own experiences IS backing it up?

It does back up what you "can't help thinking", yes. But low sample observational, second-hand evidence isn't great for giving an accurate picture.

For example, I personally think it's safer that ever to be a road-user nowadays. When I started driving 25-odd years ago I felt that people drove more aggressively than they do now. I very rarely get cross with other road-users. That might, however, simply be because I've mellowed in my old age or I'm driving less like a dick that I did as a kid so people are treating me better. The stats would back me up but there are so many other factors that they could be easily countered.

I couldn't say. The roads are better designed, cars are safer but traffic volumes and speeds are higher.
Vehicles are far more capable these days and motoring is a far more relaxed endeavour than it used to be. I'm sure deaths per mile driven or whatever statistic is relevant has got more favourable. 
This growth in cycling has brought with it a rise in angst. It never used to be like this I'm sure.

Garthy

Are speeds higher than 25 years ago? Traffic density and congestion must surely lower average speeds, along with the myopic thought that "I wasn't speeding so I am driving well" that seems to prevail in the last 15 years.

p90fool

My wife drives a car, is a motorcycle instructor and cycles about 5000 miles a year. 
I only worry about her when she's cycling. She's mostly on 60mph rural roads with dopey young farmers racing each other in Imprezas and even dopier young mothers texting. 

She's been knocked off a few times in town for the same reason every time, car drivers think cyclists are traveling at walking pace, not 25mpg, but if she ever gets hit outside town she has little chance of survival. 

I get sick of Londoners banging on about Lycra clad menaces holding them up tbh, that just isn't the experience of most of us in the rest the country, inattentive car drivers are literally deadly for cyclists. 

strtdv

I generally avoid cycling on shared cycle/pedestrian lanes. Pedestrians are unpredictable, dogs on or off leads are a menace, and the surface is wholly unsuitable for anything other than an 8mph leisure cycle. If you're going 20mph you're much better off on the road.
 Also, as @crunchman said, cycle lanes stop at junctions and you need to wait for cars, whereas on the road you have priority. As well as that, the local council have dedicated plenty of "cycle lanes" but have neglected to drop the majority of the kerbs, so can't use them even if I wanted to.
<br>
If they're serious about getting people to leave their cars at home then they seriously need to improve infrastructure for cyclists.

p90fool

They seem to manage everywhere else, I always hire a bike when I visit European cities and they're mostly a joy to ride around. 
We just don't take it seriously. 

crunchman

I worry about the whole segregated lanes thing.  Probably 80% plus of the roads in this country are not going to get segregated lanes in our lifetime.  The whole direction things are going at the moment is just going to put people off cycling.  There has to be a culture where car drivers respect bikes a lot more because most roads will still need to be shared.  That probably means much better prosecution (and sentencing) of people who drive badly around bikes.

Apart from junctions riding on the main carriageway is actually very safe.  Almost all accidents are at junctions so what do they do? They put in cycle lanes on the safe bits, and stop them when you get to the junctions.  if they want to fix things then they need to look at the design of junctions and prioritise them.

stimpsonslostson

Before returning to Edinburgh I lived in Manchester. The difference in attitudes to cyclists is marked. 
Manchester had big roads with lots of cycle lanes etc, as a consequence I felt that motorists never looked for cyclists (I got hit several times- almost always whilst filtering into a road from an off traffic bike lane). 

In Edinburgh as the city is more cramped everyone has to just get along- there ARE cycle lanes etc, but normally is just a red lane by the kerb. And they disappear and reappear seemingly randomly. The result seems to be that motorists know how to act around bikes (& vise versa). Here I've been hit once. In winter by a guy who decided not to clear his windscreen of snow. 

There are still idiots on both sides, but I think the police here are doing a good job of keeping things equal- by cracking down on (my pet peeve) drivers on the phone. But also stopping cyclists for various infractions- usually no lights or running red lights (my other main annoyance). 

What happened to Boardmans mum is regardless of the circumstances. 

JohnnyPlectrum

Garthy said:

Are speeds higher than 25 years ago? Traffic density and congestion must surely lower average speeds, along with the myopic thought that "I wasn't speeding so I am driving well" that seems to prevail in the last 15 years.

My current car achieves speeds unheard of by my first car and thankfully there are still some areas of the country not too badly affected by congestion. I can definitely get some places quicker than I used to, except, interestingly, work.

mellowsun

rlw said:

I'm not surprised that so many people don't stop these days when you are looking at a possible eight year sentence for  looking in the right place at the wrong time, and vice-versa, and all at the whim of a jury.

I think that's an appalling attitude. Most drivers convicted of causing death by dangerous driving serve less that 4 years. Recently, a speeding driver who ran a red light at 80mph got just 3 years after killing the occupants in a vehicle that he collided with.

All the evidence needs to be considered. Of course, there are reckless cyclists who overtake lorries on the inside at a junction.

But drivers are getting more aggressive as their own vehicles get safer. We've had numerous threads on here about the increase in drivers texting while driving and not indicating when turning.

TheBigDipper

Interesting to hear others views. My use of shared cycle paths is purely to bimble a couple of miles into town rather than driving, so my speeds are lower than 15mph. I can understand more sporty cyclists wanting to stay on the public road and keep their speeds higher than that.

I used to live in East London and commute into the City on a cycle Superhighway (along Cable Street if anyone's interested). The greatest danger to me on those was people cycling the other way (towards Canary Wharf) and pulling out into my lane to overtake someone slower...

BigLicks67

@TheBigDipper - I'd use cycle paths more, if one there were more of them and two they were interconnected. Ideally, they'd be for cyclists only. The problem where I live is that cycle paths tend to be a white line on the pavement or the gutter of the road. Also, I think it depends what kind of bike you are riding, a racing steed with skinny tyres is better on the 'smooth' tarmac of the roads rather than negotiating the many kerbed junctions on most bike paths.

TheBigDipper

BigLicks67 said:

@TheBigDipper - I'd use cycle paths more, if one there were more of them and two they were interconnected. Ideally, they'd be for cyclists only. The problem where I live is that cycle paths tend to be a white line on the pavement or the gutter of the road. Also, I think it depends what kind of bike you are riding, a racing steed with skinny tyres is better on the 'smooth' tarmac of the roads rather than negotiating the many kerbed junctions on most bike paths.

I ride a hybrid, so my wheels are quite skinny, but I understand your point. And the underlying issue, of course, is that cyclists are not compelled to use cycle paths or shared paths - which is fine and proper - but some inconsiderate motorists take umbrage at that and drop into "road rage" mode when planning their overtakes. Or just bully more vulnerable road users because they can.

jonnyburgo

i used to cycle 17 miles into Salford from Stockport Daily, the place Ive been hit 3 times is Didsbury, an aspirational middle class area full of go getters, 4WD Botox mums on the 1 mile school run and suits in big powerful cars, double parked pull out without indicating fuckwits all allong the main street My hilarious "adventures" on this stretch have been fairly well documented on here so won't go into detail right now except to say that Didsbury has proven itself to be cock central. 

People just don't think, too fucking busy for all that stuff.

stickyfiddle

The problem is lack of education on all sides. 

I spent a fair chunk of time as both cyclist and motorist in Oxford and it was terrifying the number of people who would try and overtake a bike where there isn't room and/or visibility. From driving in London I was regularly astounded at the number of cyclists who would slip up the inside of a truck signalling left at a roundabout (mostly the Bow interchange, which saw at least 3 cyclist deaths in the 2 years I lived near it).

Twats on mobile phones and ever-bigger cars with ever-less visibility don't help. 

Tbh I wouldn't put restrictions on using mobile phones in cars, as changing your music while stopped at traffic lights is not that big a deal, and the current measures aren't working anyway.  What I WOULD do is have mandatory checks of phones after any accident and a minimum 3-year driving ban for anyone found to have used their phone at the time of a crash. 

Troy

Was there a law passed recently where all cyclists have to wear lycra? 

JohnnyPlectrum

Troy said:

Was there a law passed recently where all cyclists have to wear lycra? 

It's not a law, just advisory for the sake of one's 'gentleman's wardrobe'

strtdv

Troy said:

Was there a law passed recently where all cyclists have to wear lycra? 

Yes.
You try cycling for a couple of hours in non-padded shorts and see how long it takes for the pins and needles to wear off.

Not too many idiot drivers around here to be fair, last week a truck honked at me as he didn't like the fact that there wasn't space to overtake me, but haven't had much road rage at all.

A cyclist was killed this morning on a stretch of road ride regularly. It was very foggy though and its a very busy dual carriageway with no bike lane. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't really the driver's fault either. 

I generally assume I'm invisible when riding