Thinking of going down the rack preamp power amp route... a few questions

chrishill901

I'm struggling to get a tone I'm pleased with at the bar gigs im playing because im not able to crank my valve amp enough to hit its sweet spot. I'm a fan of some modelling, I use amplitube for practise and used to own an eleven rack which I regret selling!

I know there are a number of different ways to use units like the 11r live, but I want to run it into a 2x12 guitar cab (8ohm, 115w total) for the stage sound - that and I dont trust soundmen at the dives we play.

Firstly, will any clean poweramp, such as the sort DJs use be ok? I am assuming the tone comes from the modeller therefore something that doesnt colour the tone would be desirable?

Secondly, what power should I be looking at? Most poweramps seem to be in excess of 300w but my cab has a 50w and a 65w speaker in. Will this be an issue?

I have found this, would it suffice? http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/AA200BX-300W-1U-Power-Amp-by-Gear4music/HUP#full-des

I am also considering an EHX .44 magnum or an older valvestate poweramp. Any opinions on the best budget route?

Thanks,

Chris

timmysoft

Your cab will only handle 100w, so go for the old valve state 40/40. Strong amps and sound decent enough

mck_776

The Valvestate poweramp would definately be the best you'll get for the money.

The DJ poweramp would work and would stay nice and clean if you're using the amp and cab sim on the 11r, but the .44 might not have enough headroom?

ICBM

chrishill901 said:

Secondly, what power should I be looking at? Most poweramps seem to be in excess of 300w but my cab has a 50w and a 65w speaker in. Will this be an issue?

I am also considering an EHX .44 magnum or an older valvestate poweramp. Any opinions on the best budget route?

As timmysoft said your cab is only a 100W cab. You can't just add up the power ratings of two different speakers - the cab rating is twice that of the lower-rated speaker.

I would second the old Valvestate power amp, but get the 8008 (80W per channel) and use only one channel in mono - it's a much better, more reliable amp than the 8004. In fact, if your cab has stereo inputs at 16 ohms per side you could use both channels and still be well under the safe power handling for the cab since the amp will only deliver about 30W per side into 16 ohms.

If you're using a modeller you may be better to set the output mode to 'Linear' rather than 'Valvestate', but I would definitely try both and see.

Moltisanti

when i had my axe fx rig i used a solid state ART SLA1 poweramp which was perfect, nice and loud, 1 rack space, and solid as a rock. the AFX has power amp sims which helped the overall sound, but it is a good way to get a more consistent sound live. For me though it doesn't get close to the real deal

digitalscream

Having done exactly what you're trying to do, I'd recommend that you use a full-range cab instead of a guitar cab. The 11R works far better that way.

Personally, I gigged like that for about 6 months and just couldn't get it to sound right. It was a dead power amp one rehearsal which made me dig out my old valve amp that'd been lying in the corner, so I used that on its own with no effects...and the 11R was sold the next day.

ICBM

digitalscream said:

Having done exactly what you're trying to do, I'd recommend that you use a full-range cab instead of a guitar cab.

I gigged like that for about 6 months and just couldn't get it to sound right.

That's exactly why I wouldn't do that .

I really want the full range/flat response thing to work (it would make life easier in many ways), but it just doesn't. OK, I haven't tried any of the more recent modelling stuff, but all the preamp-based or modelling gear I've ever used for electric guitar or bass sounds better in to a standard limited-range cabinet.

chrishill901

ICBM said:

As timmysoft said your cab is only a 100W cab. You can't just add up the power ratings of two different speakers - the cab rating is twice that of the lower-rated speaker.

I would second the old Valvestate power amp, but get the 8008 (80W per channel) and use only one channel in mono - it's a much better, more reliable amp than the 8004. In fact, if your cab has stereo inputs at 16 ohms per side you could use both channels and still be well under the safe power handling for the cab since the amp will only deliver about 30W per side into 16 ohms.

Thanks, I didnt know about it being double the lower rated speaker

AFAIK the 8008 is 4ohms? My cab does 8ohm mono or 16ohm stereo. How would it work? What power would it be if I ran it mono? Also, if I ran in stereo would 30w per side be enough to gig?

EDIT: found this: http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/thumbs3/marshall-8008-1991-1996-203923.jpg

Ive tried full range before, I don't like it for some reason, I'd sooner play with guitar speakers

digitalscream

That wasn't quite what I meant...posting while distracted isn't a good idea

What I meant was that I gigged with a guitar cab for 6 months and couldn't get it to sound right. The 11R was much closer with a full-range cab, but still not right enough for me to live with it (especially on comparison with the real amp).

ICBM

chrishill901 said:

AFAIK the 8008 is 4ohms? My cab does 8ohm mono or 16ohm stereo. How would it work? What power would it be if I ran it mono? Also, if I ran in stereo would 30w per side be enough to gig?

In mono into 8 ohms, one side will deliver about 45-55W I think. (I did check once, can't remember the exact figure but that's close enough.)

In stereo into 16 ohms per side, it should deliver around 25-30W per side, or 50-60W total… basically the same, but you can use stereo processing if you want and it's slightly more reliable since the amp is running even more conservatively.

That sort of power should be plenty to gig with unless you're playing really loud.

Danny1969

I gigged the 8008 for about six months with a Vox modeller, found it really harsh so brought the Marshall valve powered

 EL84 20/20 which was a huge improvement. 

I wouldn't get hung up on the full range thing, you don't need anything with a 20 \ 20 response, you can just turn off any speaker sim and use a standard guitar cab

ToneControl

look at old Hughes and Kettner half-rack units such as Crunch master, metal master, bass master, cream machine

The first 2 are excellent

However, I'd say amplitube would be a better budget option, you have it already

make sure you have a hum-control ground lift box though

chrishill901

I have the software but not the hardware. I use a Mac pro which I'm not taking to gigs. I could build a rack PC and programme it to boot to amplitube but by the time ive got that and an interface its getting pricey!

Thanks for the h&k heads up, I'll check them out

David5150

I've gigged loads with a JMP 1 pre and Marshall EL84 20/20 poweramp into a 2X12 cab and volume wise it's plenty enough.

 

Tone is superb as well, older units but well worth a look

chrishill901

I've bought an 8008 to try; as it is my first step into rack gear i thought I'd get that and if I like it I can look toward saving for something sweeter sounding down the line

Jalapeno

Where's @Clarky when you need him ?

Clarky

someone call????? lol..

to the original questions…

"Firstly, will any clean poweramp, such as the sort DJs use be ok? 

they'll work, but it's not the best way.. they'll feel a little rigid.. like playing through a hi-fi..

as suggested above, the Marshall Valvestate 8008 is great.. I have one..

they don't cost much and they are very loud.. although they are solid state, they feel like a valve power amp..

make sure though you set them to valvestate and not linear [as shown in the pic above].. 

it'll soften the highs and it'll bounce like a real valve amp when pushed hard..

I used mine to drive a pair of Marshall 1960b cabs [so I was stereo 80W per side]

if I needed a little extra beef I'd use the 4ohm sockets on the cabs

these days I use a Matrix GT1000FX…

it's 500W a channel [solid state].. it sounds a lot, but the designer told me that it's equivalent to a little over 100W per channel of a valve power amp..

the GT1000FX has been 'slowed down' in the way it reacts to the signal.. so although it's FRFR, it has that valve power amp 'feel'..

tone and feel wise, the GT1000FX and 8008 are comparable, the GT being a little more powerful and weights less..

Clarky

I am assuming the tone comes from the modeller therefore something that doesnt colour the tone would be desirable?"

this is true, and as the modeller will be modelling the power amp stage of an amp model, you want your real power to have no coloration. the 8008 and GT are both good for this..

some modellers [Axe, VG-99] allow you to shut down the power amp modelling.. this is good if you're running a real valve power amp like a Marshall EL34 100W/100W or a Mesa Strategy [which will absolutely colour the tone]…

the up side is that it's actually a real valve amp so the 'feel' is real and not emulated [although I can't tell much of a difference to be honest]..

the down side is you lose the power amp stage of the modelled amp.. and some amps rely on the power amp stage as much as the pre-amp to create the tone.. think low / mid gain amps like the AC30, Hiwatt, JCM800 etc

also… real valve power amps weigh 9 million tons, take up a lot of space, get really hot and smell..

Clarky

Secondly, what power should I be looking at? 

within reason.. generally as much as you can get.. power don't just mean loud.. it also means headroom…

this ensures that the power amp don't start to compress when the levels are high..

you don't want the power amp to do anything but get loud.. so if you're running it at more than 2/3 of max and you don't have enough volume, then your power amp is too small..

the GT1000FX has a bigger bro.. the GT1600FX [800W per channel - equiv to more than 160W of valve power per channel].. to be honest.. the GT1000FX is actually more than enough power.. once you have enough headroom, more headroom makes no difference..

Most poweramps seem to be in excess of 300w but my cab has a 50w and a 65w speaker in. Will this be an issue?

this is because they're solid state I bet..

rule of thumb is that 500W of solid state will be like 110W valve power amp [roughly].

so a 300W SS power amp will be something like a 60W to 70W valve amp.. which is almost enough..

it'll have the volume but I reckon in a bigger gig you may need to push it beyond 2/3

the 8008 is 80W per channel.. I reckon it's more like 400W per channel and Marshall have given it some sort of 'equivalent' rating so folks know what to expect of it..

that said.. the 8008 is crazy loud for what it is..

it's almost on a par with the GT1000FX

so… for solid state, you really want to be above 400W per channel [unless it's rated like the 8008 in which case you want about 100W per channel of equivalent valve power]..

Clarky

I don't know about your speakers…

I run 4x12 cabs so I never really think about this side of things..

I made my rig bigger than it needs to be so I don't think about stuff..

I just turn it on, turn it up..

and get told by the sound engineer to turn it down.. lmao

Handsome_Chris

@chrishill901, what is your budget? Soon as we know, we can start fighting about the best way to spend it for you.