Thinking of going down the rack preamp power amp route... a few questions

chrishill901

@clarky thanks so much for the in depth responses! I appreciate it when people take the time to help me learn

@Handsome_Chris - I have purchased a Marshall 8008 because of its cheap price. I have heard mixed reviews so I am apprehensive, but I am hoping it will perform well enough to gig with for the time being while I sell other gear. I should then have between £300-400 for a power amp.

I was reluctant to sell my valve amp as ive never gigged with a modeller, so I may dislike it, so I didn't want to purchase the better power amp straight out; by getting the 8008 I am sort of trialing modelling. If its good ill let the valve amp go. I'm hoping I find the 8008 good enough though, then I can do something sensible with the money. Or buy another guitar

The delightfully offensive and shirty forum users over at UG would say my HT50 is a hybrid amp of sorts anyway, so in that case I'll probably find the valve state power amp to be more than adequate, at least I'll be using it with a better preamp. Although I'd get shot down for not using 'teh tubezzz'

ICBM

Clarky said:

rule of thumb is that 500W of solid state will be like 110W valve power amp [roughly].

so a 300W SS power amp will be something like a 60W to 70W valve amp.. which is almost enough..

But you really have to be careful, because although that's true in terms of perceived volume, watts are still watts and the speaker cab will still see the full 500 - which will easily blow 110W-rated speakers if you turn the amp up a fair way.

Of course the idea is that you don't - because you want to keep the amp clean - but it's very easy to go too far. With PA-type speakers it's actually the right way to do it, because amp distortion kills PA speakers even faster than too much power so the important thing is that the amp never distorts… and you will hear that and reduce the volume - but for guitar, obviously you *want* distortion so it's much harder to tell when you're in the danger area.

(Clarky will know this obviously!)

chrishill901 said:

The delightfully offensive and shirty forum users over at UG would say my HT50 is a hybrid amp of sorts anyway

Don't be offended - be proud of it . It *is* a hybrid amp - it uses a mixture of valve and solid-state circuitry. But then so does running a Tube Screamer (or a modern silly-money version of one) in front of a valve amp, and the snobs are happy with that…

You just have the two in the same box. The HT circuit is actually quite similar to a Tube Screamer going into a valve amp, and it's run in the same sort of way as 'purists' do with their pedals - the "TS" is run almost as a clean boost, and doesn't actually contribute any distortion if the gain is at less than about 3 o'clock - the overdrive still comes from the valves. (I've checked this on a scope.)

I admit I don't like the way Blackstar market some of their stuff as "valve" or "pure valve" with the implication that it's *all* valve, but there's nothing wrong with the technology itself.

Roland

chrishill901 said:

.... Although I'd get shot down for not using 'teh tubezzz'

Some people will shoot at anything that's not in vogue. Valve amps may eventually get shot at because of their "environmental impact". 

Modelling doesn't work for everybody, so you are right to hold onto your valve amp. It works for me. I've spent over 40 years trying to ditch hot, noisy, unreliable valves. With the latest generation of modellers I'm happy to do that. The biggest step was not losing the valve amp, but switching from guitar cab to FRFR. The advice I got was to take it in stages, so I spent almost a year putting the modeller through the power stage and speakers of 50w 2x12 combo. Nowadays we play through the PA, with low stage volume. This means that I can get the same sound in a small bar and a large ballroom - something I couldn't do with a 50w valve combo.

chrishill901

Oh yeah, i'm aware of the ht50s trickery, seeing as it only has 2 preamp valves and bucket loads of gain, and every model seems to have 2 el34s despite different power ratings! Its a good amp and has served me well but it doesn't cut through too well. I'm perfectly happy with it and I find it a very safe and reliable amp to use, but I'm left wanting more (and regretting the sale of the 11r I used to have for recording). What amuses me over at UG is the suggestion that I may as well be using a line6 spider. It used to be loved over there and recommended daily until people found out it is hybrid, and now suddenly it sounds awful. Last time I checked the tone didn't change when I found out it was hybrid!! Haha

I think modelling will work for me but I think the jump from a valve amp to frfr will be too much to begin with and put me off. I'm intentionally going through a cab but it is in the back of my mind that eventually frfr may be the solution. It is too big a jump for now though, it'll just freak me out and put me off!!

Clarky

I don't understand this..

"I have purchased a Marshall 8008 because of its cheap price. I have heard mixed reviews so I am apprehensive, but I am hoping it will perform well enough to gig with for the time being while I sell other gear. I should then have between £300-400 for a power amp."

because the 8008 is a power amp, or is there another type of 8008 that's a regular amp???

chrishill901

eh? i have bought the 8008, the poweramp, to tide me over until I can afford something like an EL84 20/20 or something, a better poweramp. It hasn't arrived yet so I'm still apprehensive as to whether it will be usable

Clarky

ahhh... it looked like you was saying "I got an 8008, then I'm going to get a power amp" which is a bit odd looking..

no worries..

to be honest, I wouldn't bother with the EL84..

I've toured all over with the 8008 and it's served me extremely well..

and when playing outside of Europe, weight becomes a costly problem, so I've needed to have a poweramp provided for me..

In Japan they got me an EL34 100/100.. and guess what..

I couldn't really tell much of a difference between that and my trusty 8008..

prior to using the EL34, I really wanted one [to replace the 8008], having actually used one there was not enough to gain that'd justify the cost, size, weight etc etc.. there probably is a tone and volume difference between them.. but in truth, it ain't that much..

if I were you I'd stick with the 8008

I still have mine as a reserve to the GT1000 [and the main reason for using the GT1000 is that it saves a few kg on my flying weight].. again, volume, tone and feel wise, there's very little between the 8008 and GT1000. Don't lose sight of the fact that by far, the bulk of your tone comes from the pre-amp / modeller. so much so that it almost neutralizes the power amp. there are of course differences, but they are comparatively small

chrishill901

haha no worries, probably my bad use of language :P when i type on my phone my concept of grammar, sentence structure and punctuation just goes out of the window!

out of curiosity as you're an 8008 owner, does it expect a line level signal? Im looking into how to hook up the eleven rack before I get it and the avid video shows the guy hooking it up to the FX return of a marshall valve amp but using the output 2 (which is instrument level) - surely that wont be hot enough? Will I have to use XLR to 1/4" from the main outs to give the 8008 a line level signal?

Clarky

all guitar fx-units / pre-amps have 1/4" jack outputs.

so you just connect these to the 8008 inputs. I use those short mono patch cables [they're about 8" long] to connect the fx-unit to the power amp inside the rack]

treat input A on the 8008 as 'left' and input B as 'right' if you're in stereo [likes wot I duzz]

if you're in mono, most fx-units will have a (mono) marking for the mono output [and you'll also have to set the fx-unit itself to mono in it's global settings]..

you only use the XLR connectors to DI into a mixing desk