Massive Les Paul Confusion - Definitive guide anywhere?

Voxman

I have permission from Mrs Voxman to treat myself to a quality guitar up to £5k, and I'm leaning heavily to another Les Paul as my 1990 LP Custom is very lonely!   

Now, I'm sure this has come up loads before - but like many others I am utterly confused and bewildered by the LP variations e.g. 58R, 59R, R0, R7, R8, R9, (and then the specs change every year!) Heritage, Historic, True Historic, Traditional, Custom Shop, which are weight relieved and which aren't, pro's/cons of different woods, different electronics (50's wiring? bumble caps? like I know what that means etc), different neck thickness's, shapes, different tenon/heel joints, etc etc.  I've tried reading up on all this but am just getting more confused.  

So, I'm trying to figure out the hierarchy order of cost/quality, and whether a LP costing £4-5k really is worth the money.  I'm going to try out as many as I can before buying, and will likely buy 'pre-owned', and I'd prefer one with slight ageing rather than a gloss one, but I really want to better understand exactly what I'm buying, what sellers to trust (I know there are imitations around), and what's the best version(s) to look for from the perspective of build, tone, quality of woods/electronics, authenticity/differences with e.g. a real '58, '59, and which is the best from a wanted/respected/re-sale/investment perspective.  

I suppose I'd like a LP that's as near to an original 59 or 58 as I can get.  

So, is there some guide somewhere that covers all this?  And what years were the best to look out for?  

In short....HEEEEELP!  

RaymondLin

In short.

Get a Used 2013/14 range

R7 if you want a gold top
R8 if you want a thick neck
R9 if you want the neck that most people love most
R0 if you like a thinner neck.

In 2015 they added the True Historic line which is same as the Historic in 2014 but with a price hike to complicate things.

Basher

It can be quite confusing. Here's an overview at the Les Paul Forum:

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?139795-Year-by-Year-History-of-the-Historic-Les-Paul-Collection

Buying used is obviously the best value and I'd be an R8 or R9 from the last few years. The weight seems to have come down a bit and the quality seems to be consistently good. 

I'd have thought you'd be well into nice R9 territory with plenty of change to spare. The R8s are great value and the more recent ones seem to feature quite natural looking flamed tops that I prefer to the more pronounced R9 tops. The R8s tended to have bigger necks than the R9s, though both are at the chunkier end of the spectrum. The R0 (1960 reissue) has a slimmer profile neck but these are quite rare. (Ignore the bumble-bee thing. They're just modern capacitors made to look like the old ones.)

Loads of experts here who know a shitload more than I do. I'm sure they'll chip in.

dindude

Save all the confusion, buy a Huber.

RandallFlagg

There is no single guide that I know of, try visiting the Les Paul Forum and My Les Paul and reading there and also reading specs on Gibson.com

It soon makes sense. 

Historic Reissues are worth the money if you can afford it and want to get closer to what an original 50s Les Paul was like. No weight relief, selected woods, 50s wiring, more authentic sounding pickups, more authentic colouring and finish, fat neck, holly veneer on headstock, vintage correct ABR bridge etc. 

If I had that £5K I would visit World Guitars site and get a new 2016 Standard Historic 58 VOS, in my opinion these are best value of the current historic reissues and you would have a good amount of change for pedals, amp upgrade etc.

There is very little difference between the R8 and R9 in 2016, the tops on the 8's can be just as nice and the neck carves are much much closer plus they now share the same reissue Lifton style brown case and you save over £1K getting the 8.

This one is particularly nice in my opinion: https://worldguitars.co.uk/shop/gibson-custom-shop-standard-historic-1958-les-paul-vos-iced-tea-r8-60715/

You won't get a new True Historic for £5K and the debate still goes on as to whether they are worth the uplift over standard historic's but everyone who trie them seems to love them.

richardhomer

I'm by no means a Les Paul expert - but I endorse everyone who's said 'buy used'.

New Historics are stupid money these days and Gibson's annual revision of the specs (news flash - 2017's will be 'the most accurate yet') seems to guarantee poor resale values.

A friend of mine bought an R0 about 7 years ago and it's a lovely guitar - very well put together and it plays really well. I doubt (as an instrument, rather than a reproduction) that 'this year's model' would be any better.

Deijavoo

I've been gassing for a lemonburst, flamed R0 of late. Amongst many other guitars. 

Does that help?

I also fully endorse the go used. Use the spare change for a second hand Ford Focus.

andyoz

I'd start with a 2014 R8 or R9 depending on your neck and top flame preference.  VOS finish second hand with a bit of playing under its belt. Less than 3k. If you spend any more you'll probably be too precious about playing the thing.

pintspiller

Don't forget to try before you buy. Buying unseen via internet/mail order is all down to luck and I wouldn't gamble £5k on that.

Panama_Jack666

Just buy a goldtop and be done with it

TimmyO

Can I be "that guy" in this thread?  : go and play them and see f you can see feel or hear a difference, and if you do then do those differences feel like a deal you are happy with for the cost? 

MattP

RaymondLin said:

In 2015 they added the True Historic line which is same as the Historic in 2014 but with a price hike to complicate things.

The TH and the 2014 historic aren't exactly the same, but the differences are relatively small. Post 15, the non TH reissues went back to a short tenon, which may or may not make a difference to you.

I've been through loads of Historics over the years, and am down to an r7, a 40 anniversary Murphy aged R9 and a cc#24 (True Historic).

Obviously, there are years to go for is specific specs are what you're looking for, such as 99/00s have arguably the nicest colours, 2003s have pointy inlays (and some have braz) and more recently they've moved to hide glues and correct dyes. To be honest though, play some, and these small differences will evaporate if you find the 'right' one. My 40th anniversary is the best Les Paul i've ever played in 20 years, and I don't care that the inlays are 'wrong', the tailpiece is straight, the truss rod has a condom and all the rest of it!

The necks also vary as they're finished by hand - my r7 has a very 59 style neck, and nowhere near the biggest i've ever experiences, which was attached to a 68ri custom.

Have fun on the hunt, sometimes that's the best bit!

As an aside £5k could get you into replica territory, ignoring the issues for and against that for now...

peteri

Can I be another 'that guy' - for that money, get something vintage.

You could easily (I think) get a nice late 60's early 70's Les Paul, that would save you all the confusion over specs and also mean you'd get something made at the original Kalamazoo factory (if you like that sort of thing).

Plus, I would guess a better investment for all of the above reasons.

Skipped

As has just been said, the guitar in your hands is much more important than Gibson claiming that one year is "more accurate" than some other year.

What does more accurate mean?

I have played 'Bursts and other fifties LPs and I am not a stranger to the world's greatest Les Pauls. In fact I am playing one at this moment.  But I also own a Pre-Historic, which is an early Custom Shop Les Paul. I kept that one and sold my "more accurate" R8 because the Pre-Historic is "more accurate" to me. It is closer to the vibe of a fifties Les Paul than the Historic was.
Mark Knopflers finest moment (arguably) was played on a mid 80's Pre-Historic. (Brothers in Arms)
Warren Haynes number one guitar is an 80s Pre-Historic.

So keep an open mind.   

marantz1300

You could buy a 68/69 Custom (not the reissue). Not the 59 spec, but still great guitars.

Philly_Q

In case someone hasn't mentioned it, avoid 2012 - that's the year they ran out of rosewood and used laminated or "bi-layered" fingerboards.  I doubt it has any adverse effect on the tone, but it does damage the resale value.

RandallFlagg

richardhomer said:

I'm by no means a Les Paul expert - but I endorse everyone who's said 'buy used'.

New Historics are stupid money these days and Gibson's annual revision of the specs (news flash - 2017's will be 'the most accurate yet') seems to guarantee poor resale values.

A friend of mine bought an R0 about 7 years ago and it's a lovely guitar - very well put together and it plays really well. I doubt (as an instrument, rather than a reproduction) that 'this year's model' would be any better.

I disagree. I had a 2007 R9 and my 2016 R8 is better in several ways, better sound being the most noticeable. The Custombucker pickups are a cut above the Burstbuckers or whatever was fitted back in 2007

RandallFlagg

MattP said:

RaymondLin said:

In 2015 they added the True Historic line which is same as the Historic in 2014 but with a price hike to complicate things.

The TH and the 2014 historic aren't exactly the same, but the differences are relatively small. Post 15, the non TH reissues went back to a short tenon, which may or may not make a difference to you.

Not true. 2016 standard historics have long tenon

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2016/Custom/Standard-Historic-1958-Les-Paul-Standard.aspx

richardhomer

RandallFlagg said:

richardhomer said:

I'm by no means a Les Paul expert - but I endorse everyone who's said 'buy used'.

New Historics are stupid money these days and Gibson's annual revision of the specs (news flash - 2017's will be 'the most accurate yet') seems to guarantee poor resale values.

A friend of mine bought an R0 about 7 years ago and it's a lovely guitar - very well put together and it plays really well. I doubt (as an instrument, rather than a reproduction) that 'this year's model' would be any better.

I disagree. I had a 2007 R9 and my 2016 R8 is better in several ways, better sound being the most noticeable. The Custombucker pickups are a cut above the Burstbuckers or whatever was fitted back in 2007

In which case, I defer to your greater knowledge.

John_P

I agree with Peter - when your budget is 5K I'd start looking at something older, it's going to be a more interesting search and you could find something that's (imo) a lot cooler than a modern reissue.

RaymondLin

MattP said:

RaymondLin said:

In 2015 they added the True Historic line which is same as the Historic in 2014 but with a price hike to complicate things.

The TH and the 2014 historic aren't exactly the same, but the differences are relatively small. Post 15, the non TH reissues went back to a short tenon, which may or may not make a difference to you.

I've been through loads of Historics over the years, and am down to an r7, a 40 anniversary Murphy aged R9 and a cc#24 (True Historic).

Obviously, there are years to go for is specific specs are what you're looking for, such as 99/00s have arguably the nicest colours, 2003s have pointy inlays (and some have braz) and more recently they've moved to hide glues and correct dyes. To be honest though, play some, and these small differences will evaporate if you find the 'right' one. My 40th anniversary is the best Les Paul i've ever played in 20 years, and I don't care that the inlays are 'wrong', the tailpiece is straight, the truss rod has a condom and all the rest of it!

The necks also vary as they're finished by hand - my r7 has a very 59 style neck, and nowhere near the biggest i've ever experiences, which was attached to a 68ri custom.

Have fun on the hunt, sometimes that's the best bit!

As an aside £5k could get you into replica territory, ignoring the issues for and against that for now...

The differences are mostly plastic I believe.