Gibson's financial woes

UnclePsychosis

andyoz said:

I showed a random stranger my guitar collection and the only one that they showed any interest in was my Strat.  Blanks looks for the other nice LP, SG, etc.  This is the sort of person that would be taking their kids in to buy guitars one day....

Based on that random pole, I think Gibson's fecked! 

Did you try asking a Czech or a Hungarian?

(sorry...)

RocknRollDave

ICBM said:

dindude said:

That's the point I guess, even when I was an impressionable teenager some 20 years later than this, if someone we knew had a "real" Fender or Gibson, it was a thing of marvel, not rare but certainly not two-a-penny.

And unless they were some of minor local rock star, they had either a Fender *or* a Gibson, not both. The average working musician might have had one, but more than likely their backup would be a cheaper Japanese brand. If they had an acoustic at all it would often be something cheap.

The idea that every amateur bedroom player would have *several* Fenders, Gibsons and other big-name brands would have been inconceivable - but the guitar industry has now built its business model around that. If it ever shifts back towards the guitar as an instrument where you just choose the one that suits you and that's enough, they're all screwed.

And if that does happen, I blame that chap who maintains you only need one guitar to gig with. I forget his name.

bobliefeld

What will gibson do when those boomer guys with 8 stripper-named Les Pauls start dying?  
They're not going to be buying 1 or 2 Les Pauls a year anymore and their wives will be selling off the harem.  

UnclePsychosis

I guess the crux of the problem is that Fender and Gibson (in particular) are set up as mass market companies.

Now, the likes of Sony and Ford and Hotpoint can count on the fact that your car will eventually need replacing because it's falling apart, your TV will need replacing because it doesn't have 8k 6D HDTVTVTV capability and your washing machine needs changing because it's now inefficient and expensive compared to modern tech. None of those things apply to gu

shrinkwrap

Thing is the debt is over the entire business, so those other business purchases are contributing to turnover /profit / loss.
Need to see balance sheet to see how it all breaks down.
Philips may be a well known brand for consumer audio but where's the synergy? - it must be a punt to get into digital - apps tablets and what not. But Philips are hardware not (much) software.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

dindude said:

That's the point I guess, even when I was an impressionable teenager some 20 years later than this, if someone we knew had a "real" Fender or Gibson, it was a thing of marvel, not rare but certainly not two-a-penny.

And unless they were some of minor local rock star, they had either a Fender *or* a Gibson, not both. The average working musician might have had one, but more than likely their backup would be a cheaper Japanese brand. If they had an acoustic at all it would often be something cheap.

The idea that every amateur bedroom player would have *several* Fenders, Gibsons and other big-name brands would have been inconceivable - but the guitar industry has now built its business model around that. If it ever shifts back towards the guitar as an instrument where you just choose the one that suits you and that's enough, they're all screwed.

You are correct - when I started in the mid 70's most local gigging guys had a Fender or a Gibson - very few had both - I've stated for a number of years now that the biggest growth in the guitar business in the last 20/30 years or so is that many guitar players now have 5-10 guitars - some more, some less, but most of us have more than one - The emergence of a new market and a new generation of Noel Gallagher's or Jimi Hendrix players in the last 10 years is now quite a rare event - We get a periodic blip and I'm talking about electric guitars not acoustic - Rock, Blues, Rock n Roll, Jazz, Indie/pop, even country is still pretty much a guitar based format, but modern dance, hip hop or whatever form of electro you want to call it, barely even needs a guitar

I've seen pictures of guitars stores in Liverpool like Rushworth's and they only had about 20 guitars on display and that was a major dealer in Liverpool with John and co as customers - I recall in 1976, my dad's first order with Fender was for THREE Strats - Just Three !!!!!!!! - Local charity stores have more guitars in stock now

Interesting reading many blogs on FB, as many of us have a number of guitars and some form of GAS - yet there is an underlying vibe to get it down to less, yet a mail shot from Coda on some stunning prices on 335's and we all dive back in - But without all of us acquiring GAS and a resulting collections, the guitar industry would probably have already contracted back to its size in the 1960's and maybe that is were it is going anyway !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - No obsolescence and saturation are major issues - yet it can survive happily in a cottage environment  

professorben

UnclePsychosis said:

andyoz said:

I showed a random stranger my guitar collection and the only one that they showed any interest in was my Strat.  Blanks looks for the other nice LP, SG, etc.  This is the sort of person that would be taking their kids in to buy guitars one day....

Based on that random pole, I think Gibson's fecked! 

Did you try asking a Czech or a Hungarian?

(sorry...)

I asked my Czech partner, but she only likes PRS. 

ICBM

RocknRollDave said:

And if that does happen, I blame that chap who maintains you only need one guitar to gig with. I forget his name.

lol

Actually I would like to see it happen.

I don't particularly want guitar companies to go out of business, but the current model is unsustainable and they need to work out how they can stay around producing fewer, better guitars before they have it forced upon them.

pmg

Haych said:

I work in the finance industry and the whole growth and expansion of businesses is something I still fail to fully understand. There seems to be a mentality that a business must grow at all costs. 

Sure, there has to be some sustainable growth but there comes a time when the whole thing is just going to implode unless your customer base expands at an exponentially greater rate than your business expansion.  Gibson, IMHO, have tried to be too big and have miscalculated and are now finding out that their customer base isn't large enough to support the growth.

At least with their consumer electronics subsidiaries technology does move on, things stop working, people upgrade etc.. I think that's less likely with wood and wires where the used market is flooded and the new stuff (especially from Gibson) is seen as particularly inferior to the old stuff.

I predict they'll sell off a few subsidiaries to recoup some cash then they'll be sold for the brand value after which the business will be asset stripped and investors will be sold down the river.

So basically they should have taken the Rickenbacker approach.

UnclePsychosis

UnclePsychosis said:

I guess the crux of the problem is that Fender and Gibson (in particular) are set up as mass market companies.

Now, the likes of Sony and Ford and Hotpoint can count on the fact that your car will eventually need replacing because it's falling apart, your TV will need replacing because it doesn't have 8k 6D HDTVTVTV capability and your washing machine needs changing because it's now inefficient and expensive compared to modern tech. None of those things apply to gu

This post seems to have got mangled. It was meant to say

"None of these things apply to guitars. Must be hard to be a mass market company when existing products do the job just as well as new ones do"

Hootsmon

crunchman said:

A lot of it is image and what is perceived as cool.

Their sales weren't great in the 80s until Slash came along.  Everyone was playing superstrats and pointy things but Strats weren't cool in the 60's until Hendrix came appeared on the scene.

Strats haven't been so fashionable again in recent years because of the Tony Blair / old white guy effect.

At the moment it seems to be Teles, offsets, and Gretsches that are popular or as popular as any electric guitars are at the moment.  Looking at the likes of Ed Sheeran acoustic guitars seem to be more popular than electrics at the moment.

They need a Slash for the new generation to come along - either that or Taylor Swift to get fed up with playing pop and start toting a Les Paul.

what's an offset?

olafgarten

hootsmon said:

crunchman said:

A lot of it is image and what is perceived as cool.

Their sales weren't great in the 80s until Slash came along.  Everyone was playing superstrats and pointy things but Strats weren't cool in the 60's until Hendrix came appeared on the scene.

Strats haven't been so fashionable again in recent years because of the Tony Blair / old white guy effect.

At the moment it seems to be Teles, offsets, and Gretsches that are popular or as popular as any electric guitars are at the moment.  Looking at the likes of Ed Sheeran acoustic guitars seem to be more popular than electrics at the moment.

They need a Slash for the new generation to come along - either that or Taylor Swift to get fed up with playing pop and start toting a Les Paul.

what's an offset?

Jaguar, Jazzmaster, Mustang and the like, where the waist isn't perpendicular to the neck

Hootsmon

olafgarten said:

hootsmon said:

crunchman said:

A lot of it is image and what is perceived as cool.

Their sales weren't great in the 80s until Slash came along.  Everyone was playing superstrats and pointy things but Strats weren't cool in the 60's until Hendrix came appeared on the scene.

Strats haven't been so fashionable again in recent years because of the Tony Blair / old white guy effect.

At the moment it seems to be Teles, offsets, and Gretsches that are popular or as popular as any electric guitars are at the moment.  Looking at the likes of Ed Sheeran acoustic guitars seem to be more popular than electrics at the moment.

They need a Slash for the new generation to come along - either that or Taylor Swift to get fed up with playing pop and start toting a Les Paul.

what's an offset?

Jaguar, Jazzmaster, Mustang and the like, where the waist isn't perpendicular to the neck

My next door neighbour's like that

richardhomer

hootsmon said:

olafgarten said:
where the waist isn't perpendicular to the neck

My next door neighbour's like that

That possibly made me laugh more than any other comment ever posted on the FB....