Watch out for the return of baked maple fretboards

SteveRobinson

Cites moves to protect the world’s most trafficked wild product by placing all 300 species of the tree under trade restrictions

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/29/wildlife-summit-cracks-down-on-illegal-rosewood-trade

thermionic

Ah, I was just about to post this!

"The Convention on the Trade in Endangered Species (Cites) summit on Thursday placed all 300 species of rosewood under trade restrictions, meaning criminals can no longer pass off illegally logged species as legitimate."

Not just Brazilian any more.

SRich

I thought that sounded like a great British B Movie

crunchman

CITES has different levels of listing - Appendix 1, Appendix 2 and Appendix 3.

Stuff on Appendix 1 (Brazilian Rosewood) is essentially completely off limits.

I think the other stuff can be traded with the appropriate paperwork.  It does depend on whether they are on Appendix 2 or 3.

The article says: Some rosewood species can still be logged under the new rules, but will require permits that should only be granted if it is deemed sustainable.

There is plantation grown rosewood in some parts of the world so I think there will be some available at least.

However you look at this, prices will go up and real rosewood will probably only be on high end guitars.  Makes me wonder if I should go out and buy a couple of Martin D28s as an investment.

Megii

Are there any good substitutes for real rosewood (baked maple aside)?

timhulio

There are enough guitars out there already though. So maybe if we just stopped making them for a few years it'd sort itself out.

Not pedals though. Just guitars.

crunchman

timhulio said:

There are enough guitars out there already though. So maybe if we just stopped making them for a few years it'd sort itself out.

Not pedals though. Just guitars.

According to the article it's Chinese furniture that is the bid demand for it.

Someone talk to the Swedish and get them to export Ikea to China.

Whitecat

I'm a convert to one-piece roasted/baked/tempered/whateveryouwannacallit necks... they can be spectacular. 

Anyway, this is a sign of things to come. Mahogany will be next...

guitars4you

The article says: Some rosewood species can still be logged under the new rules, but will require permits that should only be granted if it is deemed sustainable. 

There is plantation grown rosewood in some parts of the world so I think there will be some available at least.

The problem is once it is on a guitar how do you know what is what

CITIES is a massive can or worms - many web articles reiterate this especially a few USA articles from vintage dealers and journalist - From a green point of view I fully appreciate we need to protect wildlife, be it plant or animals and have no issues with such measures providing they are fully implemented

The issue now is that it is all very unclear - A 1962 Strat with a Brazilian fingerboard is made pre-CIties - However if it is now imported from a USA dealer/private seller to the UK or EU it now requires a cities certificate and without this certificate it can be confiscated at the point of entry to the UK - Ivory has now caused issues on pre WW11 Martins to the point that in the USA it is illegal to sell them in certain states but not others - Dealers like Gruhns simply state that in this instance they won't sell to that state or country as it is not worth the hassle -  I adopt a similar policy in that if a customer in Australia wanted a PRS with Brazilian Rosewood neck, I could not guarantee seizure at customs, so best just to leave it - the hassle of getting paperwork is not worth it

 Pernambuco is now on the cities listing and just about every serious violin player has a pernambuco bow - many have ivory tips on the bows - This has already caused problems on touring pro players - A recent incident at German customers with a Japanese touring pro muso, meant a violin and bow was confiscated and the Jap government had to get involved to release the goods

The cities statement is about commercial gains, so that includes gigging and selling - Mark Knopfler had an issue on a tour with customs clearance - Santana won't tour his Brazilian PRS out of the USA

To me the easy answer is place the appropriate cities bans on select woods, inlays etc as required from today's date, but allow all goods made before that date to be freely available, be it touring or selling - That is not currently the case - I can currently sell a PRS Modern Eagle with Brazilian Rosewood to any EU country, as there is no border control (yet) but could not even return it to the USA for a warranty repair without paperwork, wildlife and fisheries inspection and other issues that might mean it is seized

If you had say a 200 year old hairbrush with an ivory or tortoiseshell handle it is legal to own and sell as it is an antique - Yet if you decided to break this down and utilise the ivory for a top nut or tortoiseshell for inlays it instantly becomes illegal

Jack_

timhulio said:

There are enough guitars out there already though. So maybe if we just stopped making them for a few years it'd sort itself out.

Not pedals though. Just guitars.

Think of all the rosewood that's been wasted on Crafter and Aria and other shit beginner guitars that litter Gumtree and eBay.

#prayforrosewood

SRich

Megii said:

Are there any good substitutes for real rosewood (baked maple aside)?

I think we're going to find out real quick....

It does beg the question of how the next generation of the True Historic Gibsons are going to be "the most accurate yet" 

guitars4you

SRich said:

Megii said:

Are there any good substitutes for real rosewood (baked maple aside)?

I think we're going to find out real quick....

It does beg the question of how the next generation of the True Historic Gibson's are going to be "the most accurate yet" 

They are not really True anyway as they don't have Brazilian fingerboard or made of Honduras mahogany - They should be called 'Nearly True' - That said they are nice guitars

Neil

Does it really matter what fretboards are made from?

On another tangent, for Fender fans, alder and maple will never become rare. 

Sporky

Thing is, "baked maple" conjures up all sorts of delicious mental images. I'm all in favour.

impmann

Stupid.

Neil said:

Does it really matter what fretboards are made from?

On another tangent, for Fender fans, alder and maple will never become rare. 

Thats why a Fender is always going to be superior... ;-)

(Runs away, puts on tin hat and jumps into hastily created trench and awaits the flaming arrows....)

TTBZ

Didn't we already (kind of) agree that in a band mix it really makes bugger all difference? If it looks the part I don't think I really care. The problem I've seen with a lot of baked maple boards is they look too pale.

guitars4you

TTBZ said:

Didn't we already (kind of) agree that in a band mix it really makes bugger all difference? If it looks the part I don't think I really care. The problem I've seen with a lot of baked maple boards is they look too pale.

I think it depends on the overall grade of the instrument - Musicman and Tom Anderson have used it for a while with appropriate honey stain to look nice - they are not trying to disguise it as rosewood - just a different form of maple - I suppose it depends if you are trying to disguise it as r/wood or not

Neil

guitars4you said:

TTBZ said:

Didn't we already (kind of) agree that in a band mix it really makes bugger all difference? If it looks the part I don't think I really care. The problem I've seen with a lot of baked maple boards is they look too pale.

I think it depends on the overall grade of the instrument - Musicman and Tom Anderson have used it for a while with appropriate honey stain to look nice - they are not trying to disguise it as rosewood - just a different form of maple - I suppose it depends if you are trying to disguise it as r/wood or not

I guess you could stain maple a dark brown and have somebody punch loads of tiny holes in it and nobody would notice the difference.

Sassafras

SRich said:

Megii said:

Are there any good substitutes for real rosewood (baked maple aside)?

I think we're going to find out real quick....

It does beg the question of how the next generation of the True Historic Gibson's are going to be "the most accurate yet" 

If the thread on Gibson's finances is anything to go by we probably won't be seeing a next generation of any Gibsons.

Skipped

Jack_ said:

Think of all the rosewood that's been wasted on Crafter and Aria and other shit beginner guitars that litter Gumtree and eBay.

#prayforrosewood

Surely that is the answer. If Rosewood becomes more expensive it will be a no-brainer that the high end guitars will get the Rosewood board.

It should not be a problem.
Martin now have the technology to make a whole guitar out of highly compressed mouse droppings.

crunchman

@guitars4you you are right about CITES being a problem in a lot of ways.  I think I've read the forests in Brazil are just being burned down for agricultural land because they can't sell the wood any more.

The Brazilian rosewood thing is made worse by the EU though.  Pre 1992 rosewood isn't actually covered by CITES - the fact that you can't legally import a '65 Strat is down to EU idiocy being added on top.  This is why you can still sometimes buy limited run PRS with Brazilian rosewood in the US (which abides by CITES) but not in the EU which has the extra rules.

Hopefully our government will do away with the EU idiocy when we leave.

The stupid thing is that if you made the trade legal with the correct documentation there would be an incentive for people to plant the stuff so their grandchildren could get rich, and it wouldn't just get burnt down.

I don't think they will ever stamp out small scale use of rosewood - especially as you correctly said once it's in a completed item there's no way of knowing the source, but I think this will make it more difficult to chop the stuff down on an industrial scale.