Watch out for the return of baked maple fretboards

OilCityPickups

absolutpepper said:

I have baked maple on my LP Classic Custom and I have to say I really like it. Sure there's personal preference but I'd encourage anyone who hasn't tried it to give it a go before they pass judgement. For the LP it adds a brightness to the tone that other boards may not and paired with an aluminium tailpiece and graphite saddles it makes my LP sing. I wasn't sold beforehand in principle but now I'd happily have another

normula1 said:

I've baked maple fingerboard on my LP special and I can honestly say that other than a slight colour and grain difference I've never noticed a difference between it and my rosewood board guitars.

I also have a Gibbo with a baked maple board ... love it. Smooth, comfortable, and if you didn't know what it was you'd never give it a second thought.

scrumhalf

Sounds like an excuse for a special version of Great British Bake Off.

Whitecat

professorben said:

olafgarten said:

professorben said:

normula1 said:

I've baked maple fingerboard on my LP special and I can honestly say that other than a slight colour and grain difference I've never noticed a difference between it and my rosewood board guitars.

You are probably making the mistake of hearing with your ears, it's a simple mistake to make, try hearing with your eyes or better yet your preconceptions. 

I don't even think that's far enough, some geniuses manage to hear by solely looking at a spec sheet. They don't even need to be anywhere near the guitar, nor do they have to know if it exists.   

so that's theoretical rosewood? 

So the question is, if a Brazillian Rosewood tree falls down in a forest.
Are there any Gibson executives left that would know what to do with it? 

Yes, Henry J would conduct a press conference from it, where he would proceed to set it on fire before unveiling his newest electrical abomination.

fandango

Richlite, anyone? Gibson uses it on a number of 'standards' now. More so than baked maple. Not yet picked up a guitar with this non-wood alternative. How is it going down with those who have a richlite 'board?

Sporky

I've not done anything with it yet, but I've got a bit of Richlite. It rings like a nice bit of wood when you tap it, and it looks a lot like ebony.

TimmyO

I have a guitar neck that is all baked maple (thus, it has a baked maple fretboard :-)  ) - it feels really nice. Fretboard wood choice has always been about feel for me (I don't like feeling gloss) so given that baked maple doesn't need a finish, it feels nice and smooth. As long as the colour fits the look you like, I see little downside. 

GSPBASSES

fandango said:

Richlite, anyone? Gibson uses it on a number of 'standards' now. More so than baked maple. Not yet picked up a guitar with this non-wood alternative. How is it going down with those who have a richlite 'board?

Do you mean Rocklite? As Rocklite is a wood based product.

Whitecat

GSPBASSES said:

fandango said:

Richlite, anyone? Gibson uses it on a number of 'standards' now. More so than baked maple. Not yet picked up a guitar with this non-wood alternative. How is it going down with those who have a richlite 'board?

Do you mean Rocklite? As Rocklite is a wood based product.

No, he means Richlite. 

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Gear-Tech/en-us/Building-a-Better-Fingerboard.aspx

GSPBASSES

The reason I asked the question, I've just been working with some Rocklite, that is also an ebony substitute. Rocklike is in fact of wood-based product that looks and feels exactly the same as ebony. I don't know what wood it is or what they do to it to make it look and feel like ebony, but it really is a brilliant material which I'm sure I will start using in the future. It is not a cheap product, about the same price as medium grade ebony, but it is absolutely jet black. It machines really well, in many ways better than ebony because it tends not to chip, if you've ever been doing complicated inlay work on ebony you'll know why me. 

I come across Rocklite by accident, I went out to David Dykes to buy a high quality ebony board. David wasn't there at the time so I just went through the fingerboard's to find the blackish one I could. I found one went back to workshop, sanded it to size slotted it then glued it onto the neck. The next day fitted the inlays radius the neck, fitted the frets. The neck when off the customer. He fitted the neck to the body and is been playing it for a few weeks now. The next I when out to David Dykes. I told him I'd taken an ebony fingerboard "AAA" quality, he asked me where I took it from I showed him, he then explained to me that the fingerboard I took was in fact Rocklite. I telephoned my customer and explained what happen, he said, as I hadn't noticed that it wasn't real wood, he has been playing it ever since he got it and he loves it. Not a problem.

So it should be well for fingerboard is in the future, we have baked maple to replace rosewood, Rocklite to replace ebony, do not about Ricklite and there is no shortage of North American Rock Maple, and there's certainly no shortage of European Maple or Sycamore. The only problem is, will guitar players except the new products.

 As the saying goes, how many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb, answer, Ten, one to change it while the other nine talk about how much better the old light bulb was and they don't make them like they used.

zepp76

TheGuitarWeasel said:

absolutpepper said:

I have baked maple on my LP Classic Custom and I have to say I really like it. Sure there's personal preference but I'd encourage anyone who hasn't tried it to give it a go before they pass judgement. For the LP it adds a brightness to the tone that other boards may not and paired with an aluminium tailpiece and graphite saddles it makes my LP sing. I wasn't sold beforehand in principle but now I'd happily have another

normula1 said:

I've baked maple fingerboard on my LP special and I can honestly say that other than a slight colour and grain difference I've never noticed a difference between it and my rosewood board guitars.

I also have a Gibbo with a baked maple board ... love it. Smooth, comfortable, and if you didn't know what it was you'd never give it a second thought.

Yep, I'm another baked maple advocate. I have a Les Paul with a baked maple board and can't fault it, as has been said it's smooth and easy to play on. 

crunchman

I've got one of the cheaper Martins with some kind of synthetic fingerboard.  I don't really notice the fingerboard material at all.  It also has HPL back and sides, and a Stratobond neck.  The Stratobond is a wood product but the only part of the guitar that is real wood is the top and bracing.  This is probably the future except on high end instruments.

It's actually a very good sounding guitar.  When I bought it sounded better than guitars that were twice the price.  It's not as good as my HD28V but then I don't want to put that in a gig-bag and carry it on my bike.

Lebarque

Am I missing something here? Doesn't baked maple sound like...maple, not rosewood? Therefore, it's not a direct substitute because it will make a guitar sound snappier and brighter?

grungebob

If you all can hear a difference between fretboard woods you've got better ears than me. Also you all mention feel when taking about the fretboard, I don't think I feel the wood only how smooth the frets are. 

I honestly don't care what the boards made from other than I prefer the look of rosewood or dark boards.  The Gibson I had with Richlite looked good and my PRS guitars look good too. 

olafgarten

I think the feel of the wood is negligible, and I doubt anyone would be able to hear a difference in sound.

On my Les Paul with half the frets I'm only touching the Inlays, not even near the wood.

If you really can feel the wood you are fretting too hard.

earwighoney

The new CITES regulations are really going to hit acoustic guitar making/sales. 

What will Martin do for the D28?  

OilCityPickups

grungebob said:

If you all can hear a difference between fretboard woods you've got better ears than me. Also you all mention feel when taking about the fretboard, I don't think I feel the wood only how smooth the frets are. 

I honestly don't care what the boards made from other than I prefer the look of rosewood or dark boards.  The Gibson I had with Richlite looked good and my PRS guitars look good too. 

olafgarten said:

I think the feel of the wood is negligible, and I doubt anyone would be able to hear a difference in sound.

On my Les Paul with half the frets I'm only touching the Inlays, not even near the wood.

If you really can feel the wood you are fretting too hard.

 I'm with both of you: personally I think fretboard material has very negligible effect on the sound of an electric guitar. Neck wood makes an impact, but the mass of a fingerboard is too small to make very much difference. Thus a maple neck guitar is more snappy than a mahogany one. Personally I think people confuse the issue as most maple fingerboards have a slippery finish on them, and I believe that changes the characteristic of the fretted note. Baked maple has no finish, so behaves and feels like rosewood. In the past pretty much all maple fingerboard guitars had maple necks, so we associate maple with 'brighter'. My mahogany neck, baked maple board Gibson is no brighter than my mahogany neck rosewood board Gibson.
If baked maple or Richlite or any substitute means we can continue to have reasonably priced, great quality guitars, then bring it on.

guitars4you

earwighoney said:

The new CITES regulations are really going to hit acoustic guitar making/sales. 

What will Martin do for the D28?  

I've sat here for days looking at this blog and the discussion on fingerboards and have been waiting to see who would mention this first - I know we are on an electric page of F, but the blog is relevant to all guitars - Valid comment indeed 

Truth be known we don't know - I've had  a few chats in the trade and like Brexit, know one knows what is happening yet

crunchman

Most species of rosewood can still be used.  It's just that it will need the appropriate paperwork.

Limehouse_Blues

I think that most of the new species added will probably end up in Appendix 2 to CITES because the most severely endangered species of rosewood are already in Appendix 1 (threatened with extinction). In the 1997 EU implementing legislation Appendix II species are included in "Annex B" to the Regulation. Appendix 2 / Annex B species aren't threatened with extinction yet but are still in danger and so subject to lesser controls than Appendix 1 / Annex A species. Currently, dalbergia granadillo and dalbergia retusa (both commonly referred to as cocobolo) are in Appendix 2 but species like d.latifolia (Indian rosewood) are not. The recent agreement is to add to Appendix 2 every species of the genus dalbergia that's not already on Appendix 2, thus bringing in stuff like d.latifolia.

Brazilian rosewood / dalbergia nigra, as an Appendix 1 species, sits in Annex A of the EU Regs, subject to the strictest import / export controls as well as the most severe restrictions on domestic (i.e. intra EU) 'commercial use'. The rest of this post concerns the EU/UK commercial use controls, not the import / export restrictions. Obviously though, the addition of new species of rosewood to Appendix 2 of CITES will have an impact on their import into the EU. It won't stop the import but it will surely increase the cost of importing lawfully due to the requirement for paperwork that has not been required previously for stuff like Indian rosewood (d.latifolia).

CITES Appendices (not yet updated to reflect the October agreement on rosewood)
https://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php

EU Regs
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:31997R0338&from=en

UK Regs (Reg 8 contains the commercial use offences)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1997/1372/contents/made

UK Guidance note on commercial use https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/355268/cites-gn2.pdf

UK Guidance note on worked specimen exemption
http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140707135733/http://www.defra.gov.uk/ahvla-en/files/cites-gn7.pdf

For Appendix 1 / Annex A species it is clear that any domestic trade without a 'commercial use' certificate is a criminal offence unless an exemption applies (such as the 'worked specimen' exemption outlined in the fifth link above). The offence is strict liability, so ignorance/lack of intention offers no defence and the maximum penalty includes a fine and a custodial sentence of up to three months (or two years on indictment).

For instruments made before 1947 the 'worked specimen' exemption obviates the need for a commercial use certificate (the cut-off is 50 years prior to the entry into force of the EU Regs and corresponding UK regs). This has the weird consequence that someone who makes a domestic sale of a 1946 Gibson L5 containing Brazilian rosewood should be able to do so freely without having to get paperwork. Conversely, someone who wants to sell a 1948 ES-125 containing the same fingerboard timber has to get the commercial use certificate (an "Article 10" certificate  - the number referring to the relevant article in the EU Regs) - but can only get this certificate if they can demonstrate to the CITES authorities in the relevant EU country that the instrument was acquired in or entered the EU prior to d.nigra being listed in Appendix I (1992) (see Article 8(3) of the EU Regs for this condition). Commercial use certificates cannot be obtained for any post-1992 Appendix I specimen.

So, another quirk of the current rules is that while someone today might obtain the relevant US CITES export permit and UK CITES import permit to bring a 1948 guitar containing brazilian rosewood from the US to the UK, they would then find it legally impossible to obtain a commercial use certificate if they ever wanted to sell it on within the UK/EU because they would not be able to demonstrate entry into or acquisition in the EU prior to 1992. (The UK Regs also create offences relating to making false statements to obtain certificates). These rules and offences are common throughout the EU but the German authorities seem to be the most zealous enforcers when it comes to vintage guitars. The UK authorities are clearly not ignorant though as this 2014 article from the Antiques Trade Gazette demonstrates (the second article explains the enforcement situation in Germany):

https://www.antiquestradegazette.com/news/2014/danish-furniture-pulled-from-sale-over-cites/

http://www.rio-palisander.de/index-english.htm

The UK Regs already criminalise domestic trade in "Annex B" specimens that have been unlawfully acquired / imported. So presumably (once Annex B is amended to reflect the new additions to Appendix 2 of CITES) this offence will extend to all the species newly added to Appendix 2. There are defences linked to the "lawfulness of import / acquisition" condition in Reg 8(4) and (5) of the UK Regs. The Article 10 'commercial use' certificate is not needed for domestic trade in Annex B specimens but, if challenged, a person would need to be able to demonstrate the lawfulness of their acquisition of the specimen. One would hope that sales receipts / import waybills for guitars with "Annex B" rosewood proving acquisition / import prior to the species being added (in 2016) to Appendix 2 would suffice on that score - but who knows?  

Bottom line is that in the UK / EU, it's a criminal offence to make commercial use of an Appendix I / Annex A species such as brazilian rosewood in a post-1947 instrument unless you have the "Article 10" certificate - regardless as to whether or not the original import was lawful. By contrast, the criminal offences relating to the commercial use of Appendix 2 / Annex B species such as dalbergia granadillo (already on Apprendix 2) only bite if the specimen was unlawfully imported into the EU (e.g. imported without the appropriate import paperwork).   

I expect we'll still see Indian rosewood (d.latifolia) on high end guitars but the paperwork that the manufacturers like Gibson and Fender will now have to crunch through to demonstrate the lawfulness of import into US / export from US / import to EU of stuff like Indian rosewood will mean that prices for the consumer will creep up.

guitars4you

see above @Limehouse_Blues ;

it is not just about selling - it is about commercial gains and that includes gigging and recording

I also believe there are issues with the permits in that it might allow say a USA to UK  but then another permit would be required from say the UK to Japan after that - There are stories in the USA that a permit only allows access into certain airports

Plus I believe that when trying to acquire a permit on say a PRS Modern Eagle with Brazilian rosewood, or a Martin D28 from the 50's , they want additional info regarding inlays, other woods, where they came from and the latin names - urghhhhhhhhhhhhh