Advice required, guitar I've bought has an issue

menamestom

fretmeister said:

menamestom said:

Drew_TNBD said:

Caveat emptor.

"In the UK, consumer law has moved away from the caveat emptor model, with laws passed that have enhanced consumer rights and allow greater leeway to return goods that do not meet legal standards of acceptance.[3] Consumer purchases are regulated by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, whilst business-to-business purchases are regulated by the Sale of Goods Act 1979."

Doesn't apply to private sales.

Doh!

kipple

menamestom said:

  paul_c2 said:

I don't really know what to further suggest - if you really can't cope with the paintwork, then get the luthier to fix it but 1) it will never quite match a factory finish and 2) you'd have to pay 100% of this, I don't think you have a valid claim here.

Yeah, possibly not much I can do really. Again it's not the paintwork, it's more knowing it's had a major repair and it's not what I thought it was.  I might not have much recourse but If I'd sold a guitar and found out it had a headstock break and I had not mentioned it, I'd be mortified and give the money back straight away.

Especially gutted as it's a 40th birthday present from my family

In the pics you took of the guitar it shows the back of the headstock and the back of the neck.
In the pics the back of the neck is a sort of light brown color and where the volute is on the back of the neck is an area that is covered in black paint. so it is clear to see that there is black paint sprayed onto the Lighter colored brown wood.

Is it because of the area of black paint on the volute that you believe it has been repaired. 

mort

I'd try talking to them again - particularly once you've got the 'expert' opinion in writing. Like you, I would always refund if something had a genuine issue that I hadn't spotted - it would be pretty bad of them to not refund.

It is possible to get your money back even though it's a private sale but you would have to do this via small claims.

thebreeze

If you want to get your money back you might have to play a long game - and even then I think it's more likely you won't if they decide not to cooperate.

First, talk to them, explain the situation and try and persuade them to do the right thing.  If they refuse say politely you'll be seeking professional advice and will seek redress.

If they subsequently don't play ball send a formal letter, enclosing the report (use words like "professional opinion etc." and say they have the chance to refund within 14 days etc. before you take further action.

Lastly, go through the Small Claims (£35 I think) and hope that all the hassle for them will make them change their mind.  It will involve some hassle for you too though.

However, Drew's right - I'm pretty sure a Court will decide Caveat Emptor in the end in these circumstances.

It's a bummer all round. 

paul_c2

mort said:

It is possible to get your money back even though it's a private sale but you would have to do this via small claims.

It is also possible that the OP would go down the small claims court route, and lose. You need to balance the risks, ie seek proper advice about the likelihood of success here. I am not an expert but the fact that you had the opportunity to look at the guitar before handing over the money swings the balance in the seller's favour in this instance. If it were a dealer, or you didn't have the chance to closely look at it (ie it was a distance-sale, based on photos alone) it would be much more in your favour (but still not a 100% certainty).

The luthier's report might give more weight to your case, might not.

Winny_Pooh

I doubt the bloke you bought it from would know where to go for such a pro level repair.

If I had to bet, It would be that there was no break and you are being fussy about a secondhand guitar. However no one can be sure unless you look at it under a blacklight.

menamestom

kipple said:

menamestom said:

  paul_c2 said:

I don't really know what to further suggest - if you really can't cope with the paintwork, then get the luthier to fix it but 1) it will never quite match a factory finish and 2) you'd have to pay 100% of this, I don't think you have a valid claim here.

Yeah, possibly not much I can do really. Again it's not the paintwork, it's more knowing it's had a major repair and it's not what I thought it was.  I might not have much recourse but If I'd sold a guitar and found out it had a headstock break and I had not mentioned it, I'd be mortified and give the money back straight away.

Especially gutted as it's a 40th birthday present from my family

In the pics you took of the guitar it shows the back of the headstock and the back of the neck.
In the pics the back of the neck is a sort of light brown color and where the volute is on the back of the neck is an area that is covered in black paint. so it is clear to see that there is black paint sprayed onto the Lighter colored brown wood.

Is it because of the area of black paint on the volute that you believe it has been repaired. 

No that's pretty standard.  It's that it's sprayed over the finish where as on the body it is under the lacquer and immaculate.  Also I've just received the report from the luthier,  who has sent a comprehensive email stating unequivocally the headstock has been repaired.

kipple

menamestom said:

kipple said:

menamestom said:

  paul_c2 said:

I don't really know what to further suggest - if you really can't cope with the paintwork, then get the luthier to fix it but 1) it will never quite match a factory finish and 2) you'd have to pay 100% of this, I don't think you have a valid claim here.

Yeah, possibly not much I can do really. Again it's not the paintwork, it's more knowing it's had a major repair and it's not what I thought it was.  I might not have much recourse but If I'd sold a guitar and found out it had a headstock break and I had not mentioned it, I'd be mortified and give the money back straight away.

Especially gutted as it's a 40th birthday present from my family

In the pics you took of the guitar it shows the back of the headstock and the back of the neck.
In the pics the back of the neck is a sort of light brown color and where the volute is on the back of the neck is an area that is covered in black paint. so it is clear to see that there is black paint sprayed onto the Lighter colored brown wood.

Is it because of the area of black paint on the volute that you believe it has been repaired. 

No that's pretty standard.  It's that it's sprayed over the finish where as on the body it is under the lacquer and immaculate.  Also I've just received the report from the luthier,  who has sent a comprehensive email stating unequivocally the headstock has been repaired.

menamestom said:

kipple said:

menamestom said:

  paul_c2 said:

I don't really know what to further suggest - if you really can't cope with the paintwork, then get the luthier to fix it but 1) it will never quite match a factory finish and 2) you'd have to pay 100% of this, I don't think you have a valid claim here.

Yeah, possibly not much I can do really. Again it's not the paintwork, it's more knowing it's had a major repair and it's not what I thought it was.  I might not have much recourse but If I'd sold a guitar and found out it had a headstock break and I had not mentioned it, I'd be mortified and give the money back straight away.

Especially gutted as it's a 40th birthday present from my family

In the pics you took of the guitar it shows the back of the headstock and the back of the neck.
In the pics the back of the neck is a sort of light brown color and where the volute is on the back of the neck is an area that is covered in black paint. so it is clear to see that there is black paint sprayed onto the Lighter colored brown wood.

Is it because of the area of black paint on the volute that you believe it has been repaired. 

No that's pretty standard.  It's that it's sprayed over the finish where as on the body it is under the lacquer and immaculate.  Also I've just received the report from the luthier,  who has sent a comprehensive email stating unequivocally the headstock has been repaired.

That's a Shame .. I hope you can sort something out with it.

mgaw

how about they give you money off the sale price as a half way point you sell the guitar as a repair to recoup the rest?

mgaw

also why not threaten them with legal action and see if that sways them, i would always take a cynical view of sellers in this situation, rightly or wrongly, i just think it takes any "emotion" out of the situation

menamestom

Good news, full refund offered following the email. Thanks for all your input. I just wanted to be prepared with my options should that not have been the case. It's a very nice guitar, hopefully they can sell it on with the information I have provided, somebody may well get a bargain.

Philly_Q

Having read the whole thread, I'm glad to hear it's been settled amicably. 

I wouldn't want to take the side of a dodgy seller, but in this case it sounded like a grieving widow who'd made an honest mistake.  Dragging her through the small claims courts didn't sound like the most desirable course of action.

octatonic

professorben said:

Is orange peel not where the finish has sunk into the wood?

No, it is due to spraying technique- it is where you get a lack of coverage in certain areas, due to the nozzle flow being set to be too light, spray PSI being set wrong, ambient temperature being wrong, moving too fast with the gun, spraying too far away from the area to be sprayed, often a combination of all of these.

mort

Excellent news - I know how you must feel having been through a similar situation.

I haven't bought a 2nd hand guitar since my experience, only bought new!

menamestom

Philly_Q said:

Having read the whole thread, I'm glad to hear it's been settled amicably. 

I wouldn't want to take the side of a dodgy seller, but in this case it sounded like a grieving widow who'd made an honest mistake.  Dragging her through the small claims courts didn't sound like the most desirable course of action.

Agreed, it's been with a heavy heart I've pursued it and I was up most of the night on Thursday with it all running through my head.  At least with a shop you can just go in and shout at them, almost worth paying the extra for that.

paul_c2

Good news.

Sassafras

Good job you took advantage of the grieving widow at her lowest ebb.
Her whole world must be crumbling so a sale falling through shouldn't upset her too much more.
  

skunkwerx

Glad its sorted. 
I know how it feels. 

stonevibe

There is a picture of the back of the neck and the headstock on the original Ebay advert.

Also

Surely the neck would be one continuous colour on the model normally? So could you compare to yours to another model and see if it has indeed been 'covered' up.

menamestom

stonevibe said:

There is a picture of the back of the neck and the headstock on the original Ebay advert.

Also

Surely the neck would be one continuous colour on the model normally? So could you compare to yours to another model and see if it has indeed been 'covered' up.

The colour is correct.  The tuners have been off and there's a sticker missing but otherwise the black is in roughly the right place.  Rather than going over all ground again, here's the professional assessmennt from a guitar builder and repairer.

Hi Tom - you did well to spot it, however, the job whatever it was wasn't finished very well.

My experience of work in this area of the instrument leads me to believe the headstock has been broken at some point, the dark finish on the volute is a dead giveaway. I took a photo of the suspicious area when you brought it in so I could blow it up, I have attached it for your information - you can see where it has been sprayed over and too much lacquer has been applied, sufficient to make the finish buckle, the other thing is the totally different standard of finish at that point on the guitar - the rest of the guitar is immaculate while this suspicious area not very well done, it hasn't been rubbed down correctly and polished up to the same level of gloss. In addition some of the washers on the tuning machines are upside down, meaning they have been off  - that would not happen straight from the factory, there is also white residue on the rosewood fingerboard between the nut and the first fret - another tell tale sign things being done to it.

Not knowing what has been done to the guitar is a worry and it being disguised badly under a dark finish backs up that doubt - as mentioned it leads me to believe the headstock has been broken or cracked - which is a common problem on most Gibson style guitars plus their copies like this one suffer the same weakness at that point, I've fixed hundreds of them myself over the years

In terms of the people selling the guitar the description is inaccurate - there has been work done on the guitar and it is certainly not "as new" which obviously affects the value of the instrument. I would go back to them and explain what is wrong with it, hopefully they will understand your disappointment with it once the problem is pointed out.