AxeFX & Kemper - thinking the unthinkable and selling my soul to the devil

UnclePsychosis

Behave. Amps absolutely do not "develop a personality". 

Neither do guitars for that matter, but if they did they'd develop one through a helix too. 

By all means stick with "real" amps and pedals. But save us the nonsensical justifications. 

Drew_TNBD

colourofsound said:

Thanks for those kind words. I appreciate it!

I suppose there is no real logical standpoint here; its a feeling i have which is totally bias because I haven't tried out these units myself; but i have heard them in the flesh. So really, i don't have any right to comment!

To answer your question though - no, two JCM800s or Devilles won't sound noticeabley different to one another - especially if they were brand new units.

Over time, however, that could change. Cabinet warp, analog values change through use; and so on, equipment (especially amps and guitars; pedals not so much) develop their own personlity through usage; through wear and tear. So two 10 year old Devilles probably will sound different.

As I type this, it sounds ridiculous. But, i think its true. A Helix will sound exactly the same in 10 years, it is the reason why digital is excellent but also the reason why it feels 'soulless' to me. It is a double edged sword.

You see, I have already been through this once with studio gear; which is much more expensive and considerably more involved to use. I couldn't afford to buy analog compressors and EQ, so I work in the box with plugins. It is incredibly convenient, but it also can act as a crutch. You've heard the term 'fix it in the mix', right? That's a fallacy IMO, brought on by the crazy utility plugins provide. But I truly feel that if you mic an instrument properly, spend the time to obtain the knowledge to record correctly, you won't need to fix it in the mix. Plugins are supporting an attitude that implies that the most important part - capturing a musical moment - isnt important.

You can't exactly apply that to guitar gear; but I suppose I want to distance myself from a fully digital workflow. If I'm recording to digital I want the source to be as analogue as possible, haha. If that makes sense??

Another thing - i am sick of emulations of things that already exist. The industry is continually chasing old tones; similarly musicians seem obsessed with sounding like other players rather than themselves. The reason I like pedals is because new and exciting stuff is being released all the time - the Count to 5, the Sneak Attack, Chase Bliss stuff - can these unique things be emulated in a Helix or otherwise right now?

So thats where i'm coming from. And i remain fully open to the possibilty that i will try a Helix and it will be amazing and I will want one; but I'm not there yet.

Ramble over!

Godamn those emulations of things that already exist!!

ToneControl

colourofsound said:

@Jonathanthomas83 The other thing for me which I didn't mention, is that having all of that choice would, for me, be crippling. I'm bad enough as it is with finding ways of fucking about for 4 hours and not actually writing or playing anything; if I had a toy like the Helix I'd literally get nothing done!

And as far as my last statement is concerned; I don't think it's silly. The majority of users will use presets and they will sound the same as each other - discerning members of this forum won't do that though. I can't deny the digital modelling sounds incredible now - I plan to utilise cab modelling to play my lovely tube amp silently - but I suppose I have misgivings I can't and don't really want to overcome. Plus I just don't need it...I don't gig that much at the moment and I really don't find moving a Deluxe Reverb and a pedalboard about that taxing!

If I was a touring musician or in a function band...that would be a different story.

I think it's a fantasy to think that players with valve amps and  pedals  have any kind of monopoly  on personality in their playing

Going back many years I recall noticing that many keyboard players  gave kudos to those who programmed their own synths. In reality, of course, synth programming  is not the same thing as musicianship or original artistry. Neither is  programming  amp modellers or setting knobs on a valve amp, or plugging fashionable FX pedals into your amp.

IMO when using digital kit, in realiity accepting good quality  patches that others have shared or buying them, then tweaking them a little  is the equivalent of buying a boutique amp and dialling in your favourite settings. It's done once, and then rarely changes.
Players using a preset as a base on a synth or  amp sim  have lost no more individuality than someone buying a  popular amp.

All my boutique amps stay on the settings I found to work best for me years ago, the patches in my  AF2 and Kemper also stay as-is. There is nothing to compel anyone to keep faffing about - once it sounds right, just play!

Anyway, 5 different players into the same amp or preset on a sim will not sound the same unless they all have a very  similar style

Drew_TNBD

Individuality and originality are overrated anyway. Expression of the soul is the aim of the game.

guitarfishbay

Plenty of pros working digitally today getting great results and plenty of amateurs with the same plugins, speakers, hardware not sounding the same... that's down to skill and experience. This whole line of thinking falls apart when you listen to the end result and it's still clear that the major factor in quality is the person making the decisions.

Digital, analogue, it's all just tools. Any philosophy on usage is projected from the users and doesn't originate with the gear.

colourofsound

Jesus. I'm just going to stay out this. What I said wasn't a fact or a justification, it's just my opinion.

From a recording standpoint, critical listening, choosing which of many tools a single player picks is important. That's my reference point here. I agree that the player is the most important aspect, always.

I stated that my viewpoints might be ridiculous. Why is everyone so freaking angry? 

Bridgehouse

colourofsound said:

Jesus. I'm just going to stay out this. What I said wasn't a fact or a justification, it's just my opinion.

From a recording standpoint, critical listening, choosing which of many tools a single player picks is important. That's my reference point here. I agree that the player is the most important aspect, always.

I stated that my viewpoints might be ridiculous. Why is everyone so freaking angry? 

Drew_TNBD

colourofsound said:

Jesus. I'm just going to stay out this. What I said wasn't a fact or a justification, it's just my opinion.

From a recording standpoint, critical listening, choosing which of many tools a single player picks is important. That's my reference point here. I agree that the player is the most important aspect, always.

I stated that my viewpoints might be ridiculous. Why is everyone so freaking angry? 

I don't think anyone is angry? They just disagree or take issue with one or two statements and want to shoot the shit about it. It'd be a pretty pointless forum if that didn't happen!

Cabicular

I have been recording,engineering, producing and playing guitar for 30 odd years now
I have access to a ridiculous amount of boutique amplifiers and hundreds of pedals
As you may have seen from stand-mazes website I also have the odd guitar
I don't say that to brag but to give you some context when I say once I have Helix native running in the DAW. I will struggle to use the real thing
At the moment I torpedo reload my heads into wall of sound and a variety of cab IRs which give me a better more consistent result than I ever got with a room full of mics and a cab or two 
whilst I do agree there is little to compete with being in the room with a cranked valve amp and guitar, from a recording point of view it actually makes far less of a difference in the mix
The proof of the pudding is that without track names I can't tell real from ir from emulation anymore
I would bet if I put a bunch of clips up you would struggle to pick the real amp
and cab from the emulations

Drew_TNBD

Cabicular said:

I have been recording,engineering, producing and playing guitar for 30 odd years now
I have access to a ridiculous amount of boutique amplifiers and hundreds of pedals
As you may have seen from stand-mazes website I also have the odd guitar
I don't say that to brag but to give you some context when I say once I have Helix native running in the DAW. I will struggle to use the real thing
At the moment I torpedo reload my heads into wall of sound and a variety of cab IRs which give me a better more consistent result than I ever got with a room full of mics and a cab or two 
whilst I do agree there is little to compete with being in the room with a cranked valve amp and guitar, from a recording point of view it actually makes far less of a difference in the mix
The proof of the pudding is that without track names I can't tell real from ir from emulation anymore
I would bet if I put a bunch of clips up you would struggle to pick the real amp
and cab from the emulations

Kind of why I questioned the Helix Challenge comments before... just using my ears, I can no longer tell the difference. Truth be told, I can rarely tell the difference when playing either.

I still think a cab pushing air sounds better and makes me play better than studio monitors though. So in a band context, my preference is for a real cab and one of my valve amps. For recording?? I suspect the next Tacoma release will have a lot of Helix on it!

RandallFlagg

It doesn't have to be a choice, you should have both. I sold valve amp and pedals to get a Helix and love it for direct to computer for low volume playback and recording but don't like FRFR monitors such as CLR or Yamaha DXR for louder amp in the room or as a backline solution, I prefer a valve amp for that, so am planning to get another good quality valve amp to have both bases covered.

One other thing that I really love about the Helix is the control. To be able to create snapshots within a single preset where you can make numerous adjustments to what effects are on or off and adjust amp and effect settings all together with one press of a footswitch along with having ability to sweep any parameter you like via the expression pedal is a creative tool just in itself and is very expensive to recreate with a pedalboard and individual pedals.

As for what sounds better, I can make a valve amp sound crap just as easily as I can make a Helix sound crap, and both can sound great. Both together can sound amazing.

Jonathanthomas83

Drew_TNBD said:

Individuality and originality are overrated anyway. Expression of the soul is the aim of the game.

I love that. I went to PMT to buy the first of two Yamaha DXR10s for my stereo setup, I said to the guy that I can't play for shit, but it makes me happy...he said that it doesn't matter if you can play or not, if it brings a smile to your face and helps you get through life a little easier, that's worth everything.

Cabicular said:

I have been recording,engineering, producing and playing guitar for 30 odd years now
I have access to a ridiculous amount of boutique amplifiers and hundreds of pedals
As you may have seen from stand-mazes website I also have the odd guitar
I don't say that to brag but to give you some context when I say once I have Helix native running in the DAW. I will struggle to use the real thing
At the moment I torpedo reload my heads into wall of sound and a variety of cab IRs which give me a better more consistent result than I ever got with a room full of mics and a cab or two 
whilst I do agree there is little to compete with being in the room with a cranked valve amp and guitar, from a recording point of view it actually makes far less of a difference in the mix
The proof of the pudding is that without track names I can't tell real from ir from emulation anymore
I would bet if I put a bunch of clips up you would struggle to pick the real amp
and cab from the emulations

I agree with the IR thing, I can't tell the difference either. I wrote a blog post about this stuff, would love it if you posted this as a comment on there, hard to get ahead in the blog game these days! (No pressure and excuse the cheek of it)

guitarfishbay

Drew_TNBD said:

colourofsound said:

Jesus. I'm just going to stay out this. What I said wasn't a fact or a justification, it's just my opinion.

From a recording standpoint, critical listening, choosing which of many tools a single player picks is important. That's my reference point here. I agree that the player is the most important aspect, always.

I stated that my viewpoints might be ridiculous. Why is everyone so freaking angry? 

I don't think anyone is angry? They just disagree or take issue with one or two statements and want to shoot the shit about it. It'd be a pretty pointless forum if that didn't happen!

Yep it's a web forum for discussion. Judging from your fret count you're fairly new so don't worry nobody is angry, a lot of guys here have been discussing guitar gear with each other for years!

guitarfishbay

Drew_TNBD said:

Cabicular said:

I have been recording,engineering, producing and playing guitar for 30 odd years now
I have access to a ridiculous amount of boutique amplifiers and hundreds of pedals
As you may have seen from stand-mazes website I also have the odd guitar
I don't say that to brag but to give you some context when I say once I have Helix native running in the DAW. I will struggle to use the real thing
At the moment I torpedo reload my heads into wall of sound and a variety of cab IRs which give me a better more consistent result than I ever got with a room full of mics and a cab or two 
whilst I do agree there is little to compete with being in the room with a cranked valve amp and guitar, from a recording point of view it actually makes far less of a difference in the mix
The proof of the pudding is that without track names I can't tell real from ir from emulation anymore
I would bet if I put a bunch of clips up you would struggle to pick the real amp
and cab from the emulations

Kind of why I questioned the Helix Challenge comments before... just using my ears, I can no longer tell the difference. Truth be told, I can rarely tell the difference when playing either.

I still think a cab pushing air sounds better and makes me play better than studio monitors though. So in a band context, my preference is for a real cab and one of my valve amps. For recording?? I suspect the next Tacoma release will have a lot of Helix on it!

So for all the a/b's ive heard between the Fractal and Helix I've preferred the Fractal most of the time on the amps I use... so I think I have the right unit.

But in the Helix challenge I got 3/5. The only really obvious one to me was one of the cleaner ones where the Helix sounded a bit too stiff. Other than that, pretty close, close enough that I wouldn't actually care, being honest.

If the test allowed you to have both files side by side I reckon I'd do better but that kind of proves the point... nobody listens that way, they either like something or they don't. In music there's a final performance on the recording, you don't give someone multiple versions of the same song so they can pick the one with their favourite guitar tones. 

ToneControl

guitarfishbay said:

So for all the a/b's ive heard between the Fractal and Helix I've preferred the Fractal most of the time on the amps I use... so I think I have the right unit.

But in the Helix challenge I got 3/5. The only really obvious one to me was one of the cleaner ones where the Helix sounded a bit too stiff. Other than that, pretty close, close enough that I wouldn't actually care, being honest.

If the test allowed you to have both files side by side I reckon I'd do better but that kind of proves the point... nobody listens that way, they either like something or they don't. In music there's a final performance on the recording, you don't give someone multiple versions of the same song so they can pick the one with their favourite guitar tones. 

Although the test is interesting, the thing that really matters is if you can get the sound you want

Those demo videos use tones/settings someone else has selected, and that's why they can't tell you whether you can find your tone in a amp sim FX device

With classic amp models, people know which amp can deliver what range of sounds well, and how easy it is to dial in your sound, but there's not enough clarity  on how well each amp sim delivers in this respect 

Jonathanthomas83

ToneControl said:

guitarfishbay said:

So for all the a/b's ive heard between the Fractal and Helix I've preferred the Fractal most of the time on the amps I use... so I think I have the right unit.

But in the Helix challenge I got 3/5. The only really obvious one to me was one of the cleaner ones where the Helix sounded a bit too stiff. Other than that, pretty close, close enough that I wouldn't actually care, being honest.

If the test allowed you to have both files side by side I reckon I'd do better but that kind of proves the point... nobody listens that way, they either like something or they don't. In music there's a final performance on the recording, you don't give someone multiple versions of the same song so they can pick the one with their favourite guitar tones. 

Although the test is interesting, the thing that really matters is if you can get the sound you want

Those demo videos use tones/settings someone else has selected, and that's why they can't tell you whether you can find your tone in a amp sim FX device

With classic amp models, people know which amp can deliver what range of sounds well, and how easy it is to dial in your sound, but there's not enough clarity  on how well each amp sim delivers in this respect 

Don't know if I'm misunderstanding anything you said here, but it's common for people to be unable to find "their" tone in a valve amp they may have been sure to get it from. Eg, I tried a Dual Rec for a long time and failed to get the sound I thought I'd get from it. Turns put there were many factors that go into that formula for amazing tone.

Again, I'm not sure if that's the point you were getting at but felt it worth mentioning anyway.

John_A

No, not angry at all, just frustrated - it seems the pros of units like the Helix are being put forward by gigging musicians who use one on a regular basis, and statements like 'With digital comes a loss of personality, a loss of unique identity and tendency for the quick fix' are coming from someone who hasn't used one

Jonathanthomas83

Ok here's practical question to Helix users. I absolutely nailed my favourite Gilmour tone yesterday using a Hiwatt and a few FX, sounded phenomenal. Then switched to find my favourite Mesa Rectifier tone and it sounded very dark, any advice on how I could brighten it up next time I go demo one?

Cabicular

Choose a different cab or mic
use an Eq block post the amp
use a light trebly drive pre the amp
all the stuff you would do in the real world

guitarfishbay

Tubescreamer, gain on 0 level to taste, tone on 10, dial it back if necessary, but run it high for more crunch from a Recto