Can you gig with 20 watts?

impmann · June 17

I did (Blackstar HT-20 Mk2).

If you want super clean sounds at high volumes it may not be your thing, but if you don't mind a little bit of grit and you aren't using super-mega-chug-deth-buckers, then it works well.

If you want small, light and sounding epic, I'd heartily recommend trying one of these. Its a full 100w amp, thats also switchable to 20w and 1w.

https://blackstaramps.com/dept-10-amped-3/

For the stuff you mention above, the AMPED3 will nail it.

DiscoStu · June 17

@impmann the Amped 3 was on my original list but a part of me still wants to stay valve.

And it'll need a 100w cab so I'll definitely need a 2x12 huh?

Rowby1 · June 17

My regular gigging amp is a Egnater Tweaker 15 with a G12H30 Anniversary in a 1x12 cab. Miced up for out front but plenty loud enough for me to hear over either drummer in my two bands. If I need a bit more volume (very rarely) I just turn it up in my monitor.

Lestratcaster · June 17

Depends how loud your drummer is. In the past few bands I've been in I've played with hard hitting drummers and 20 watts wouldn't be enough!! So a 120 watt Peavey 6505+ will have to do haha.

rockmonster · June 17

I can’t get away with less than 30watts. I’ve tried but both the drummer and bassist are much too loud (and deaf!)

impmann · June 17

DiscoStu said:

@impmann the Amped 3 was on my original list but a part of me still wants to stay valve.

And it'll need a 100w cab so I'll definitely need a 2x12 huh?

I get that - but tbh, these sound so good, I don't find I'm missing glowing bottles personally...

You can get 100w 1x12in cabs. Or, if you aren't running it flat out a 75w rated Celestion would probably be fine. Can't speak for other brands, but certainly in endurance testing I've seen over the years there's a lot of margin built into Celestions.

ecc83 · June 17

impmann said:

DiscoStu said:

@impmann the Amped 3 was on my original list but a part of me still wants to stay valve.

And it'll need a 100w cab so I'll definitely need a 2x12 huh?

I get that - but tbh, these sound so good, I don't find I'm missing glowing bottles personally...

You can get 100w 1x12in cabs. Or, if you aren't running it flat out a 75w rated Celestion would probably be fine. Can't speak for other brands, but certainly in endurance testing I've seen over the years there's a lot of margin built into Celestions.

Yes, Celestions are known to be conservatively rated but not all models! ICBM will have the full SP.

If I might proffer an opinion? The Amped 3 will be fairly safe with a 75W Celestion also because the amp is solid state. 100 watts for sure! But will not sail onto 200W of absolute filth that you can get from some 100W valve models. I found B's very own Stage 60 could hit 80W before clipping and Fkns how much more one could give?

THAT'S "dynamics"" something little amps can never have.

Dave.

DiscoStu · June 17

I've mentioned in other threads that I like Blackstar and that I have an HT Stage 60 MK1 2x12. I love the 3 channel setup but weight-wise it's just too damn heavy for me these days and I need to rethink portability if I'm gonna gig again.
I've thought about the Amped 3 as it's pretty much like for like control wise with what I have, but it's solid state and there are mixed reviews.
I've demoed the St James and it sounded fantastic but it had so much hum and hiss I just wouldn't be able to live with it.

I could try the HT Club 50 head. It's 14.5kg but is only 2 channel. I'd need the extra footswitch to open up the channels.

What I hadn't initially considered was the lunchbox head option as I had a '50+ watt' mindset but the more I look the more I like. Super portable and now I know they/some can cut it live.

impmann · June 17

DiscoStu said:

I've mentioned in other threads that I like Blackstar and that I have an HT Stage 60 MK1 2x12. I love the 3 channel setup but weight-wise it's just too damn heavy for me these days and I need to rethink portability if I'm gonna gig again.
I've thought about the Amped 3 as it's pretty much like for like control wise with what I have, but it's solid state and there are mixed reviews.
I've demoed the St James and it sounded fantastic but it had so much hum and hiss I just wouldn't be able to live with it.

I could try the HT Club 50 head. It's 14.5kg but is only 2 channel. I'd need the extra footswitch to open up the channels.

What I hadn't initially considered was the lunchbox head option as I had a '50+ watt' mindset but the more I look the more I like. Super portable and now I know they/some can cut it live.

Fair enough.

TBH, the mixed reviews thing is always a sign that something needs listening to in person (IMHO).

ecc83 · June 17

Impman, this is the second time I have read about the St James being noisy. I find it hard to believe Blackstar would release an amp that was not at least as quiet as say an Artisan 30?

If you were around in his day you will know that low noise was Bruce's mantra!

Dave.

impmann · June 17

ecc83 said:

Impman, this is the second time I have read about the St James being noisy. I find it hard to believe Blackstar would release an amp that was not at least as quiet as say an Artisan 30?

If you were around in his day you will know that low noise was Bruce's mantra!

Dave.

In my experience, they aren't any more noisy than an A30 at the same gain levels.

The gain channels have huge amounts of gain on tap, so there is an inevitability for an increase in hiss but even this isn't exactly 'loads'. What I've not heard is hum at any point in the development of the amps or reported to me as a 'fault'.

Therefore if there are issues with hum, I wonder if its dirty mains, single coils, strip lights, pot washers or other outside influences not being considered.

borntohang · June 17

With PA support? Yes, without breaking a sweat. Here's me on the right hand side playing a 20w 112 combo:

Without PA support I would probably prefer something over 30. I still use a 20 watter with a 112 cab live and have been told to turn down far more than I've ever been asked to turn up - mostly compressed cleans rather than fully balls out but I also take an overdrive for when the FoH inevitably asks me to turn down.

soma1975 · June 17

borntohang said: have been told to turn down far more than I've ever been asked to turn up

Same. Nothing to do with amps.

ICBM · June 17

impmann said:

You can get 100w 1x12in cabs. Or, if you aren't running it flat out a 75w rated Celestion would probably be fine. Can't speak for other brands, but certainly in endurance testing I've seen over the years there's a lot of margin built into Celestions.

The classic models all seem to be rated for roughly ‘an overdriven amp of the stated power’, ie you don’t really need any extra margin. I’m less convinced about some of the newer models, having seen a few blown. (eg Hot 100s in amps that shouldn’t be quite capable of a full 100W output.) They’re still more robust than most other makers’ equivalents though.

ecc83 · June 18

It must always be remembered in threads of this kind that the bald statement of "an amplifier of 20 watts" means very little?

In the case of a valve OP stage there is no closely defined point at which we can say "there, that is 20 watts". (about 12.6 V rms across 8 Ohms) Visible clipping? That is very subjective and amps can be praised or damned by an individual's interpretation by many watts. The only fair way is V rms across a stated load for a specified level of Total Harmonic Distortion and I would suggest 10% as a convenient figure for guitar amps? Really not that bad, I doubt many of you could detect 10% on music.

But the ULTIMATE power capability of a valve OP stage will depend upon the HT voltage and how well it is sustained. The class of the bias and, to some extent the bias 'point' the valves are set at.

But even that does not take into consideration amplifier 'voicing' and in the case of combos the speaker as we have been shown.

Dave.

ICBM · June 18

Yes, it’s really a case of how long is a piece of string. There are so many variables, both easily measurable and in some cases more subjective, that it’s very difficult to correlate rated power to perceived volume in any accurate way.

Jetfire · June 18

So is a better question/s be:

Would this specific head and these speakers/cab be loud enough to gig with?

MrBump · June 18

I rehearsed once with a 5 watt valve head and a 2x12. Everything flat out, bit of a thrash, but it sounded great.

Cirrus · June 18

Probably already been said, but it depends on the drummer and how much headroom you need.

My old band had a hard hitting drummer and we were playing occasionally heavy alt rock, I needed cleans to match the level of distortion, so I found an AC30 and 2x12 with 100db/w Celestions to be a bare minimum.

My current band has a much more restrained drummer, and it's a different style of music. 15 watts and a 1x12 is the sweet spot.

borntohang · June 18

Jetfire said:

So is a better question/s be:

Would this specific head and these speakers/cab be loud enough to gig with?

Getting closer, but it's all so dependent on situation. As mentioned, with my main project I can get away with a 20 watt playing 200-500 cap venues because we keep our stage volume low and my gain levels start at 'driven cleans' and go up from there. I've also played much smaller rooms with other projects and paradoxically needed a bigger amp because those bands were using a wider range of driven tones and dynamics which a small amp wasn't going to be able to deliver and the small room meant stage volume was a decent percentage of what the audience were hearing.

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Can you gig with 20 watts?

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