Micing your amp - what microphone?

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  • bbill335bbill335 Frets: 500
    People saying that 609/906 type mics move around if you drape them - gaffa tape. 
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    @ICBM cheers didn't know that. 
    With the EDI it was designed to replicate the tone of a Celestions 12" and comparing it with old Marshall bears that out. 
    As for bass DI, I actually like a clean pure bass tone so prefer the DI output and use amp low vol onstage. With my band the bassist has a GK rig with 4x10" cab, very really put it through PA, and even then I EQ desk so it sounds as much like his amp out front sound just louder. 
    Years ago I was asked to dep on bass at a NYE gig at a large venue where I was asked to use the stack provided by main band, who then told me not to mess with any controls? 
    So I used a DI box to PA then into amp, and had his bass amp so low you could hardly hear it offstage. The bassist rushed up to me after our set saying how good my 63 jazz bass was with his amp. When he looked at volumes of his amp, he was so pissed off realising what I had done as he either had to do a full sound check or go with same sound using his bass. 
    Im the guy that in the studio I don't even take a bass amp. 
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    bbill335 said:
    People saying that 609/906 type mics move around if you drape them - gaffa tape. 
    That looks so unprofessional as opposed to a clean amp front ;-)
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    ICBM said:
    viz said:

    So with DI, do you take the signal from the amp's output, bypassing the speakers, straight to the desk?
    Yes.

    The only suggestion I would make is that if possible and the amp has one, always use a second speaker jack (either 'extension' or one of the other impedance taps) to connect separately to the box, rather than running *through* the box to the speakers. There's no difference in the signal the box gets, but running the speaker current through it is potentially more risky to the amp, because you're introducing another cable, two jacks and plugs, and several solder connections into the signal path - if any one of these fails the amp will be left with no load. You also don't need to use a speaker cable if you're just connecting the box separately to the amp, because it is no longer carrying the speaker current. (The only exception is that if the extension speaker jack automatically switches the amp's impedance, or is in series with the internal speaker, but that's fairly rare.)

    I agree with koneguitarist - the sound out front is so heavily dependent on the PA, and especially if the EQ is not left flat, that it's a moot point as to whether what the audience hears bears any relation to your carefully chosen speaker type at all. Mic placement when right up against the grille can also make the sound *very* different from what you think the cab sounds like from even a few feet away - and if you move the mic an inch it can drastically change too.

    I'll usually just go with what the soundman wants. Some want to use their own mics, some won't use anyone else's DI box, some don't care. I have a 57 and a Red Box which cover the remaining options - the Red Box can also be used in an emergency to replace the amp entirely and go from pedalboard direct to PA.

    It could be worse, you could be playing bass... many sound engineers still like to insist on DI'ing the *bass*, not the amp - so what the audience hears has nothing to do with the sound on stage from your expensive bass amp at all.
    You mean, go from head to cab, then cab to di box to desk?

    This is really interesting. Because I always struggle to hear myself on stage, even if I'm flapping the crowds' trousers out front. However I can easily hear the drums and bass. 

    Maybe what I need is my amp head behind me, a longish lead to a 1x12 or 2x12 angled cab out front, to use asy own personal monitor; then DI (or mic, come to think of it) to the desk. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    edited October 7
    Amazing. How the hell did I never think of that all these years. And I've got a spare 12" wedge with an input and a link jack socket and a spare V30 that I can install. And the head's got cabinet-voiced output jack anyway so I can DI to the desk from the head if easier (unless that disables the lead to the speakers?)
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  • wayneiriewayneirie Frets: 378
    edited October 7
    ICBM said:
    viz said:

    So with DI, do you take the signal from the amp's output, bypassing the speakers, straight to the desk?


    It could be worse, you could be playing bass... many sound engineers still like to insist on DI'ing the *bass*, not the amp - so what the audience hears has nothing to do with the sound on stage from your expensive bass amp at all.
    I usually DI the bass and Mic the Cab as well. DI for the clean and then blend the amp tone in. If you're doing multiple bands it keeps the bass consistent. You know its going to work as well. Amp Di outs vary enormously in quality and output. The palmer boxes are also great for guitar. 
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  • Danny1969Danny1969 Frets: 2955
    The thing with bass is a lot of players will compress their bass amp a far bit .... either with an onboard compressor or if it's something like an SVT slight distortion. Now that sounds OK coming out of the cab onstage but when you put that same signal through a nice clear PA it's generally too much ..... so I prefer to take a DI that's pre EQ \ pre \ compression etc 

    I agree you lose something though, especially with Ampeg 8 x 10"s which have a lovely growl . There was a time I was mic;ing as well with a Beta 52 or similar but there was generally too much spill from other instruments on the small stages 
    www.2020studios.co.uk 
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 709
    Just asking, has anyone come across and/or tried a TUL G12?

    http://www.tulmicrophones.com/G12.html
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    viz said:
    Amazing. How the hell did I never think of that all these years. And I've got a spare 12" wedge with an input and a link jack socket and a spare V30 that I can install. And the head's got cabinet-voiced output jack anyway so I can DI to the desk from the head if easier (unless that disables the lead to the speakers?)
    That's what I love about small amps, crank them to tone you want then point them at you for monitor purpose then go out through PA. also reduces volume onstage which is never a bad thing. 
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  • robinbowesrobinbowes Frets: 1363
    viz said:

    Maybe what I need is my amp head behind me, a longish lead to a 1x12 or 2x12 angled cab out front, to use asy own personal monitor; then DI (or mic, come to think of it) to the desk. 

    This is why I bought a monitor wedge to use with my Helix. :)

    R.
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 26316
    viz said:

    You mean, go from head to cab, then cab to di box to desk?
    If the cab has a parallel output jack then that will work too. If it doesn't, connect to any spare speaker jack on the amp.

    viz said:

    And I've got a spare 12" wedge with an input and a link jack socket and a spare V30 that I can install. And the head's got cabinet-voiced output jack anyway so I can DI to the desk from the head if easier (unless that disables the lead to the speakers?)
    It won't. That should work perfectly without the need for a dedicated speaker-emulator box.

    You'll still need the (now silent) 4x12" on stage under the head or you'll look silly and Not Like A Rock Star though.

    :)
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    ICBM said:
    viz said:

    You mean, go from head to cab, then cab to di box to desk?
    If the cab has a parallel output jack then that will work too. If it doesn't, connect to any spare speaker jack on the amp.

    viz said:

    And I've got a spare 12" wedge with an input and a link jack socket and a spare V30 that I can install. And the head's got cabinet-voiced output jack anyway so I can DI to the desk from the head if easier (unless that disables the lead to the speakers?)
    It won't. That should work perfectly without the need for a dedicated speaker-emulator box.

    You'll still need the (now silent) 4x12" on stage under the head or you'll look silly and Not Like A Rock Star though.

    :)
    Both of them, you mean. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    The line out on my carvin legacy sounds disgusting. It's ok on clean (what isn't?) but it's revolting on dirty. Kone, you play predominantly clean do you not?

    Question: does the line out come out between the preamp and the power amp, much like the loop, so I use a standard guitar cable? Except that it's "cabinet voiced" so probably eq'd?

    It's not at speaker-driving current is it?

    Mine either sounds revolting because it just does without the gorgeous Carvin Legacy power stage, or because my mixer / powered PA combo isn't set up for sounding like a guitar amp (or both)

    @icbm or anyone else!
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  • wayneiriewayneirie Frets: 378
    https://www.thomann.de/gb/palmer_pdi_03_jb.htm?ref=prod_rel_247762_9 this is the di in question/similar to the product described it sits between your head and cab
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    edited October 9
    Cheers dude, yep I've got one of them - a bit simpler than that one but anyhoo - but the thing is, it goes out of the amp before hitting the power stage, correct?
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  • wayneiriewayneirie Frets: 378
    edited October 9
    input from the head, thru to the cab , then out to the console. Its after the power stage Ie It sees whats coming out the amp then links thru to the speaker. The inbuilt di on your head is probably just the preamp. of the amp.https://images.static-thomann.de/pics/atg/atgdata/document/manual/355407_bedienungsanleitung_en_de_fr_es.pdf
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    Ok but then the mixer would see a fully amplified signal and then send that to my (powered) pa speakers, which would be bad wouldn't it? That's why I'm thinking surely the direct out from my amp exits after the preamp but before the power stage?
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    Ah, just read your post again. Yes - we're agreeing aren't we? About the positioning of my amp's line out?
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  • wayneiriewayneirie Frets: 378
    edited October 9
    I don't know your amp, But usually the DI out is off the Preamp. I think some amps have a built in redbox which achieves a similar thing to the palmer. The Palmer is effectively a speaker you can DI the output is @ mic/line level, theres an attempt to capture the interaction of the power stage and the speaker. Rather than just whatever it is thats hitting the preamp. Definitely try blending the Mic with loadbox. 

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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    Ok that's what I think, thanks a lot. (Not using a mic, that's the whole point of this exercise) - thank you!
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    @viz ; I play overdriven a lot using pedals nowadays, but clean overdriven or dirty no problem with the EDI box. It comes after power amp not preamp and takes whole tone of amp inc settings and just replaces the Speaker tone with a consistent to every gig simulated speaker tone. Most amp DI on amps sound fizzy to my ears, same with using attenuators, there's a harshness there which whilst using HB's might not be so bad but with a tele bridge pickup, unplayable at times. 
    Get none of that with Peavey box, after my last gig on 20th, will send it to you to try one out if you like, not selling it but you can try it on a few gigs. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    edited October 9
    @viz ;; I play overdriven a lot using pedals nowadays, but clean overdriven or dirty no problem with the EDI box. It comes after power amp not preamp and takes whole tone of amp inc settings and just replaces the Speaker tone with a consistent to every gig simulated speaker tone. Most amp DI on amps sound fizzy to my ears, same with using attenuators, there's a harshness there which whilst using HB's might not be so bad but with a tele bridge pickup, unplayable at times. 
    Get none of that with Peavey box, after my last gig on 20th, will send it to you to try one out if you like, not selling it but you can try it on a few gigs. 
    A few gigs! I'll have to hand it back in 2018 at this rate then! No seriously, that's really good of you but I suspect it's not the box despite what you say - I've got some active and passive BSS professional stage DI boxes from a recent tour and it's no different. It's that the line out is not nice, I'm sure of it.

    Are you SURE it's past the power stage? Surely then you'd need speaker cable into the box, not just a guitar lead, and something more substantial than mic cable after it? And you'd have to use a passive PA, wouldn't you? 
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  • smigeonsmigeon Frets: 59
    edited October 9
    @viz As I understand it, these things are connected in parallel with the speaker. But as they present a very high input impedance, they only take a very low current, so they have negligible effect on the amp's output stage or the volume coming out of the speaker. But you do get the characteristics of the amp's power stage - albeit without, of course, the physical characteristics of the speaker. But the boxes use some sort of internal speaker emulation to try to get around this.

    Once into the DI box, this low-current 'tap' is converted to a balanced line-level signal that can be fed into a mixer.

    Some of these boxes are passive - i.e. don't need any power supply - and others run off a battery or use phantom power from the mixer. 
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  • wayneiriewayneirie Frets: 378
    It's Not a Conventional Di Box. You need a speaker Cable. Its From the speaker out into the box then from the thru into the cab. all the power from the output stage goes down the cable into the box then out to the cab. see the manual i Linked. do not use signal cable.
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    smigeon said:
    @viz As I understand it, these things are connected in parallel with the speaker. But as they present a very high input impedance, they only take a very low current, so they have negligible effect on the amp's output stage or the volume coming out of the speaker. But you do get the characteristics of the amp's power stage - albeit without, of course, the physical characteristics of the speaker. But the boxes use some sort of internal speaker emulation to try to get around this.

    Once into the DI box, this low-current 'tap' is converted to a balanced line-level signal that can be fed into a mixer.

    Some of these boxes are passive - i.e. don't need any power supply - and others run off a battery or use phantom power from the mixer. 
    Ah ok cool, and I understand at last @wayneirie! Thanks!
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    Your amp doesn't change at all, nothing to do with lineout from amp. It goes between speaker and amp so you definitely need a speaker lead. 
    Offer stands anyway. If you look at my band YT vids over last 5 years it's all that DI box. 
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  • vizviz Frets: 4295
    Your amp doesn't change at all, nothing to do with lineout from amp. It goes between speaker and amp so you definitely need a speaker lead. 
    Offer stands anyway. If you look at my band YT vids over last 5 years it's all that DI box. 
    Pm'd :)
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  • ICBMICBM Frets: 26316
    viz said:

    Are you SURE it's past the power stage? Surely then you'd need speaker cable into the box, not just a guitar lead, and something more substantial than mic cable after it? And you'd have to use a passive PA, wouldn't you? 
    Yes, it's definitely after the power stage. You do need a speaker cable if you're running it in-line between the amp and speaker, but not if you're connecting it separately to another speaker jack - because the box itself has a high input impedance, so it won't draw any significant current. It makes no difference to the PA.

    For what it's worth I think the Peavey EDI is transformer-based - I think it must be if it's passive - and I've always found these sound better for electric guitar however you're doing it, than the supposedly 'better' active type. (The Red Box is active, but to be honest I only really got it because it will accept a pedal-level signal as well, which I don't think the EDI will.)
    "Take these three items, some WD-40, a vise grip, and a roll of duct tape. Any man worth his salt can fix almost any problem with this stuff alone."
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  • koneguitaristkoneguitarist Frets: 2563
    Never tried that. I just leave it permanently in back of amp plugged in with short XLR to reach mixer which is above amp on stand. 
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