Which Specs are Significant?

thegummy · December 2017

It's interesting that some subtle things can be changed but it still has the same general tone yet other subtle things can be changed and it not even be considered comparable by some.

I'm wondering, would the closest matched PRS model, with the same pickups, still sound less like a classic les Paul than a modern lp with weight relief or chambering, slim neck etc?

I also wonder if there's some degree of placebo effect that make something actually called a les Paul have that classic les Paul sound and something by another manufacturer not even if it's very similar in many ways?

thegummy · December 2017

Jalapeno said:

If you want Gibson Mojo/Tone - get one.

PRS do McCarty models - which are supposed to be as close as a Gibson as they can with modern PRS manufacturing processes - Ted McCarty was with Gibson from 1950-1966 and responsible for a lot of the models and features still desirable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_McCarty

Ted McCarty was a mentor to Paul Reed Smith.

Unfortunately the mccarty is out of my price range. The se 245 seems closest out of the ones I can afford.

skunkwerx · December 2017

Nut makes a difference but to open strings really. So if chording is your bag then maybe that too!

WezV · December 2017

thegummy said:

It's interesting that some subtle things can be changed but it still has the same general tone yet other subtle things can be changed and it not even be considered comparable by some

Or, change one small variable and you probably won’t notice. Change 10 small variables and you might start to notice.

That’s the same if you are comparing Gibson to Gibson, or Gibson to PRS.

thegummy · December 2017

WezV said:

thegummy said:

It's interesting that some subtle things can be changed but it still has the same general tone yet other subtle things can be changed and it not even be considered comparable by some

Or, change one small variable and you probably won’t notice. Change 10 small variables and you might start to notice.

That’s the same if you are comparing Gibson to Gibson, or Gibson to PRS.

Is it the case that even the Les Paul that strays the most from the classic design (thin neck, weight relief body, titanium nut etc.) still doesn't have as many differences as even the closest match PRS?

I would have thought the weight relieving would have a pretty major impact on the sound of the guitar?

WezV · December 2017

It will have some effect, depends on the method of weight relief.

Gibson’s 9-hole method doesn’t change things much at all. It’s also not a very efficient method of removing weight.

larger chambers will remove more wood and change the structure more. You are more likely to notice it. Gibson have done a few styles of weight relief

my belief is it’s the stiffness of the body that affects the tone more than the weight difference itself. I use that belief when building, but I am not trying to convince anyone I am right.

If buying guitars it’s better just to play them and see what you like

thegummy · December 2017

WezV said:

It will have some effect, depends on the method of weight relief.

Gibson’s 9-hole method doesn’t change things much at all. It’s also not a very efficient method of removing weight.

larger chambers will remove more wood and change the structure more. You are more likely to notice it. Gibson have done a few styles of weight relief

my belief is it’s the stiffness of the body that affects the tone more than the weight difference itself. I use that belief when building, but I am not trying to convince anyone I am right.

If buying guitars it’s better just to play them and see what you like

Appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

I'd actually limited my search for Les Pauls to non weight relieved because it just seems to me that, if some very subtle things can affect the sound, how could it be possible that drilling away a load of the body wood not affect it?

Obviously it's most LPs that have the weight relief these days and people still think they have that classic tone but I kind of wonder if it really does differ from a classic LP tone a fair bit but people just don't care so much about that level of subtlety in tone when the psychological effect of them being aware of the model/brand name is probably quite powerful.

Any idea about my other question? "Is it the case that even the Les Paul that strays the most from the classic design (thin neck, weight relief body, titanium nut etc.) still doesn't have as many differences as even the closest match PRS?"

I suppose I should really consider if I'm really looking to get the exact vintage LP tone and all its subtleties or if perhaps it's the ballpark tone (wood types, scale length, number of frets etc.) that I'm after. As I've said on here before though, I'm not a believer in playing a guitar for a short period in a guitar shop, I really need to spend time with a guitar to properly know if I like it - sadly that's just not realistic. If maybe one day I become a rock star and/or win the Euro Millions, I'll know a few months from that day if a similar PRS will satisfy my needs or if I need a proper vintage LP :P

crunchman · December 2017

Jalapeno said:

If you want Gibson Mojo/Tone - get one.

PRS do McCarty models - which are supposed to be as close as a Gibson as they can with modern PRS manufacturing processes - Ted McCarty was with Gibson from 1950-1966 and responsible for a lot of the models and features still desirable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_McCarty

Ted McCarty was a mentor to Paul Reed Smith.

The new 594 is closer than the old McCarty models were - if nothing else because of the change in scale length.

I've only tried the doublecut 594. I'd imagine the singlecut version would be closer still. I know it's out of the OP's price range, but it is part of the wider discussion.

Ro_S · December 2017

The pickups make the biggest difference. Once you put the identical pickups in very similarly constructed guitars, with the same scale length, there ain't much difference. Expensive makes like Gibson and PRS will try to convince you otherwise; that's what their brand and market is based on.
I would choose the guitar of the two you find more comfortable to play and have your preferred pickups in them. But if you are especially keen to get the "Les Paul sound", then get a Les Paul.

thegummy · December 2017

Ro_S said:

The pickups make the biggest difference. Once you put the identical pickups in very similarly constructed guitars, with the same scale length, there ain't much difference. Expensive makes like Gibson and PRS will try to convince you otherwise; that's what their brand and market is based on. I would choose the guitar of the two you find more comfortable to play.

See that's what I would have guessed but people seem to disagree.

Would be great if there was a blind test conducted.

I was considering a behringer clone of a bass pedal but there was disagreement whether it was as good as the original. Then someone recorded a series of comparisons and no-one could reliably tell which was which (and it was a popular thread) which gave me confidence the behringer was good.

Ro_S · December 2017

@thegummy ; - are you seeking the "Les Paul sound"? If you are, then nothing is gonna get closer than a Les Paul. If that isn't want you trying to achieve, then...

The pedal thing you mentioned isn't really a comparable thing to about guitars. The sound of pedal clones will depend on the faithfulness to the original circuit and part values.
I take your point, though. (But the Behringer is NOT as good, overall as a product, as say its Boss original equivalent: it's not built as well.)

thegummy · December 2017

Ro_S said:

@thegummy ; - are you seeking the "Les Paul sound"? If you are, then nothing is gonna get closer than a Les Paul. If that isn't want you trying to achieve, then...

The pedal thing you mentioned isn't really a comparable thing to about guitars. The sound of pedal clones will depend on the faithfulness to the original circuit and part values.
I take your point, though. (But the Behringer is NOT as good, overall as a product, as say its Boss original equivalent: it's not built as well.)

The casing of the Behringer pedal is cheap and plastic but the question was whether the sound is the same and you're paying extra for a better casing - some people said the sound wasn't even close when they were just asked but when it came to the blind test, no one could tell the difference reliably.

It would apply to guitars in that, if there was a blind test comparing a classic LP, a modern LP and a PRS with the same pickups (or even just the LP vs PRS) and people could reliably pick out the PRS each time, it would prove that it could never have the LP tone.

Re: what it is I'm after - I like the sound I hear on records I know were LPs but I can't really know at this point if it's every minute detail or if I'm just after the sound a similar guitar would make.

JayGee · December 2017

It really doesn’t matter.

If you like the noise it makes, and that noise works in the context you want to use it in then why worry - and I’d say that a PRS SE245 is going to sound close enough to a Les Paul that the differences are going to be more about personal preference than anything else.

If @MattG is about then he’ll be able to tell you all about the time we went to Peach Guitars to try a whole bunch of Les Pauls and he came back with a rather lovely second hand PRS (USA rather than SE) Single cut which the previous owner had fitted with a pair of Suhr Aldrich pickups because it was close enough to the same vibe and he just plain liked it better than anything else in the shop that day, including things costing several multiples of the price...

thegummy · December 2017

JayGee said:

It really doesn’t matter.

If you like the noise it makes, and that noise works in the context you want to use it in then why worry - and I’d say that a PRS SE245 is going to sound close enough to a Les Paul that the differences are going to be more about personal preference than anything else.

If @MattG is about then he’ll be able to tell you all about the time we went to Peach Guitars to try a whole bunch of Les Pauls and he came back with a rather lovely second hand PRS (USA rather than SE) Single cut which the previous owner had fitted with a pair of Suhr Aldrich pickups because it was close enough to the same vibe and he just plain liked it better than anything else in the shop that day, including things costing several multiples of the price...

You're right about what matters but there's no way for me to know if I like the noise made by a PRS SE 245 with swapped pickups apart from buying one and swapping the pickups. To be honest, even if I did that, I'd always wonder if I'd have been better off with the LP lol

crunchman · December 2017

Ro_S said:

The pickups make the biggest difference. Once you put the identical pickups in very similarly constructed guitars, with the same scale length, there ain't much difference. Expensive makes like Gibson and PRS will try to convince you otherwise; that's what their brand and market is based on.
I would choose the guitar of the two you find more comfortable to play and have your preferred pickups in them. But if you are especially keen to get the "Les Paul sound", then get a Les Paul.

The pickups are an important factor, but they aren't the most important factor. If it was just dependent on pickups and scale length then a 335 would sound the same as a Les Paul. I know that's not what you are saying, but even on solid body guitars the wood and construction make a big difference.

I've had two Custom Shop Les Pauls, and they sounded very different. One had a lot of top end - even after a pickup swap, but it sounded very bright unplugged. The other one (that I still have) is a lot fatter sounding but it's a lot fatter sounding unplugged as well.

A lot of the PRS don't sound like Les Paul stuff does come from the older models which had 25" scale length. As I said above, the 594 does get a lot closer. Also, the pickups on the older PRS guitars were not very PAF like.

They won't necessarily sound identical, but some of the newer models are very close.

I do wonder whether some of the 594 features will filter down to the S2 or SE lines eventually. It might be worth looking out for a Bernie Marsden SE. There was one in the classifieds here recently at a very good price.

WezV · December 2017

thegummy said:

Any idea about my other question? "Is it the case that even the Les Paul that strays the most from the classic design (thin neck, weight relief body, titanium nut etc.) still doesn't have as many differences as even the closest match PRS?"

I gave my thoughts on weight relief and neck profile earlier in the thread.

I compared titanium and bronze on a 2015 Gibson, but its hardly a normal style of nut. You could certainly hear the difference between the two

With enough small changes, or the right big changes, you could certainly push a les paul to the point where a close PRS was closer to the traditional les paul sound. You could also build a PRS that sounds mostly like a Gibson by emulating more of the gibson features. PRS are not aiming to emulate Gibson exactly, so they rarely sound just like the real thing.

Your are better comparing actual models

Ro_S · December 2017

@thegummy ;; - Am I right to understand that there is certain set of pickups you have your mind on? (what are they? how much do they cost?)
Personally, I wouldn't buy any new Gibson or PRS guitar if with the intention of putting after market pickups in them. It seems a waste of money.
PRS guitars don't seem to hold their value very well. If the choice is between a Gibson Les Paul and PRS - value for money wise, I'd buy a used PRS and get your favoured after market PAF type pickups put in it.

For me, though, once you've narrowed it down to the general type of construction etc and the same pickups, I'd just base my whole choice on which I found most comfortable to play. I'd be asking myself, "is this a guitar I want to pick up and play a lot and own for a long time given the expenditure", and "is it too uncomfortable, old fashioned and heavy?"

I equally dislike PRS and Les Pauls, so I can be objective ;p

Ro_S · December 2017

crunchman said:
.
The pickups are an important factor, but they aren't the most important factor. If it was just dependent on pickups and scale length then a 335 would sound the same as a Les Paul. I know that's not what you are saying, but even on solid body guitars the wood and construction make a big difference.

Pickups are the biggest factor. I never suggested they are the only factor.

Stick non traditional pickups, such as Strat single coils, in a Les Paul and tell me how traditional Les Paul ish it sounds, compared to, say, an SG with PAFs in it.

thegummy · December 2017

Ro_S said:

@thegummy ;; - Am I right to understand that there is certain set of pickups you have your mind on? (what are they? how much do they cost?)
Personally, I wouldn't buy any new Gibson or PRS guitar if with the intention of putting after market pickups in them. It seems a waste of money.
PRS guitars don't seem to hold their value very well. If the choice is between a Gibson Les Paul and PRS - value for money wise, I'd buy a used PRS and get your favoured after market PAF type pickups put in it.

For me, though, once you've narrowed it down to the general type of construction etc and the same pickups, I'd just base my whole choice on which I found most comfortable to play. I'd be asking myself, "is this a guitar I want to pick up and play a lot and own for a long time given the expenditure", and "is it too uncomfortable, old fashioned and heavy?"

I equally dislike PRS and Les Pauls, so I can be objective ;p

I just want PAF style pickups so if I got a LP with BurstBuckers I'd keep them but the LP I like has hotter pickups that I'd replace.

Not sure what the 245 pickups are like, I'd guess they were vintage. I do actually really like the pickups that came in my SE custom 24.

crunchman · December 2017

Ro_S said:

crunchman said:
.
The pickups are an important factor, but they aren't the most important factor. If it was just dependent on pickups and scale length then a 335 would sound the same as a Les Paul. I know that's not what you are saying, but even on solid body guitars the wood and construction make a big difference.

Pickups are the biggest factor. I never suggested they are the only factor.
Stick non traditional pickups, such as Strat single coils, in a Les Paul and tell me how traditional Les Paul ish it sounds, compared to, say, an SG with PAFs in it.

At the same time, a Les Paul with Strat pickups won't sound like a Strat either. I'd say the pickups are only around 50% of it, maximum.

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Which Specs are Significant?

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