School me on Gibraltar

VimFuego

wow, crap analogy there rocker. Do 98% of the population of the arran isles wish to be governed by the US? Still, don't let facts get in the way of what you think.

Fretwired

The UK  should agree to return Gibraltar to Spain on condition that the EU agrees to the whole 1713 Treaty of Utrecht being repealed. This would require the Netherlands and Belgium to agree to the return of the Spanish Netherlands to Spain. The Spanish Netherlands included the city of Brussels.

Rocker

VimFuego said:

wow, crap analogy there rocker. Do 98% of the population of the arran isles wish to be governed by the US? Still, don't let facts get in the way of what you think.

Steady on my friend. It is probable that most or all of the inhabitants of the Rock are of UK descent. They probably speak English rather than Spanish. They have no traditional connection to Spain, they probably consider themselves to be British.  The Rock had military strategic importance in the days of the big warships. But that day has long passed. Maybe Brexit is the opportunity for the UK to give the Rock back to Spain.

Drew_TNBD

You need schooling on wind farms and audio quality, not bloody Gibralter!

VimFuego

Rocker said:

VimFuego said:

wow, crap analogy there rocker. Do 98% of the population of the arran isles wish to be governed by the US? Still, don't let facts get in the way of what you think.

Steady on my friend. It is probable that most or all of the inhabitants of the Rock are of UK descent. They probably speak English rather than Spanish. They have no traditional connection to Spain, they probably consider themselves to be British.  The Rock had military strategic importance in the days of the big warships. But that day has long passed. Maybe Brexit is the opportunity for the UK to give the Rock back to Spain.

why?

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Margate in the sun!

Where's @chillidoggy when you need him...

Maybe he's buggered off to Gibraltar?

hungrymark

ICBM said:

jellyroll said:

Agree with the sentiment but not sure Gibraltar is an Empire 2.0 question is it? We have an irrefutable mandate to the place so as long as the resident are happy to stay Britsh, what's the Empire issue?

I don't recall the six and a half million inhabitants of Hong Kong being given that option.

And we did own Hong Kong Island and Kowloon outright, by treaty just as with Gibraltar - it was only the New Territories that were leased.

HK was British as part of a lease, so the UK was contractually obliged to hand it over to Chinese control in 1997. Gibraltar isn't leased to us, it's a territory. 

ICBM

hungrymark said:

ICBM said:

And we did own Hong Kong Island and Kowloon outright, by treaty just as with Gibraltar - it was only the New Territories that were leased.

HK was British as part of a lease, so the UK was contractually obliged to hand it over to Chinese control in 1997. Gibralter isn't leased to us, it's a territory. 

No, wrong - read what I said. Hong Kong Island and Kowloon - the north shore of Hong Kong harbour - were owned by Britain *outright*, with no time limit. (Also obtained by treaty at the point of a gun.) It was only the New Territories - the part of mainland China north of Kowloon - which was leased.

In theory we did not have to hand back anything other than the New Territories. But the Chinese made it clear that this wasn't acceptable, and since the whole colony wasn't viable without the New Territories because of the water supply issue among other things, we had no choice but to agree to hand the whole thing back.

Likewise if the UK and Spain decide it's in both their national interests to return Gibraltar to Spain, it will be done regardless of what the people of Gibraltar think. The 'democratic will of the people of Gibraltar' for staying part of the UK is just a position that the UK government finds it convenient to use.

paulnb57

what if Spain owned the Isle of White 

Or, the Isle of WIGHT!....

I know, I know....Pedant...

CabbageCat

Rocker said:

VimFuego said:

wow, crap analogy there rocker. Do 98% of the population of the arran isles wish to be governed by the US? Still, don't let facts get in the way of what you think.

Steady on my friend. It is probable that most or all of the inhabitants of the Rock are of UK descent. They probably speak English rather than Spanish. They have no traditional connection to Spain, they probably consider themselves to be British.  The Rock had military strategic importance in the days of the big warships. But that day has long passed. Maybe Brexit is the opportunity for the UK to give the Rock back to Spain.

So by "School me on..." you meant "Argue with me about..."?

Since you insist...I don't think that I would be comfortable telling 30,000 people that their opinion on their nationality was less important than geographical proximity. If they (or the people of Scotland, or the Falklands, or NI) decided that they didn't want to belong to the UK any more then I would support that. A country is a political entity, not a geographical one.

VimFuego

CabbageCat said:

Rocker said:

VimFuego said:

wow, crap analogy there rocker. Do 98% of the population of the arran isles wish to be governed by the US? Still, don't let facts get in the way of what you think.

Steady on my friend. It is probable that most or all of the inhabitants of the Rock are of UK descent. They probably speak English rather than Spanish. They have no traditional connection to Spain, they probably consider themselves to be British.  The Rock had military strategic importance in the days of the big warships. But that day has long passed. Maybe Brexit is the opportunity for the UK to give the Rock back to Spain.

So by "School me on..." you meant "Argue with me about..."?

Since you insist...I don't think that I would be comfortable telling 30,000 people that their opinion on their nationality was less important than geographical proximity. If they (or the people of Scotland, or the Falklands, or NI) decided that they didn't want to belong to the UK any more then I would support that. A country is a political entity, not a geographical one.

it's odd that he says the pop of gib have no traditional connection to spain, yet he still believes they should, against their will, become spanish.

Evilmags

VimFuego said:

guitars4you said:

ICBM said:

jellyroll said:

Agree with the sentiment but not sure Gibraltar is an Empire 2.0 question is it? We have an irrefutable mandate to the place so as long as the resident are happy to stay Britsh, what's the Empire issue?

I don't recall the six and a half million inhabitants of Hong Kong being given that option.

And we did own Hong Kong Island and Kowloon outright, by treaty just as with Gibraltar - it was only the New Territories that were leased.

I've not looked into how we acquired Gibraltar so will do so later - But I'll make a good guess as to how - Honk Kong we effectively acquired it not as a gift, but as a form of negotiation, under our terms, following the Opium wars with China and a case of we had a superior Navy and guns

I guess for many years, certainly around the days of Nelson, that Gibraltar was an important naval port and as such of great strategic  importance - I'm not so sure we could justify that today - Yes we transplanted a few Brits there and they fly the UJ flag - But I find it hard to justify it as ours - what if Spain owned the Isle of White - Or indeed many of the fishing rights around Cornwall !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so which of the population of gib will you be forcibly removing?

EDIT: surely the only peoples opinions that matter in this are those who live there. How it came iinto UK "ownership" is irrelevent, it was a long time ago and no one alive now was born then. It's the here and now that is important. People are more important than politics.

This in spades. Nobody in Gib wants to be part of Spain. Especially Andalusia, which is the poorest and most corrupt part of Spain. Funnily enough none of the citizens (a majority of whom are of morrocan ethnicity want to be part of Marrocco. Because in both cases they know fine well that the drastic change in wealth that would come with a chage in ruler would be very painful.  

Rocker

As you can see it is necessary to probe and ask the difficult questions.  The opinions expressed here are probably closer to the actual truth of the situation than what  Google would find on the interweb.

VimFuego

what difficult questions did you ask?

Rocker

What the hell are you on about @DREW_TNBD?  Explain you reference to audio quality and windfarms.

CabbageCat

Rocker said:

As you can see it is necessary to probe and ask the difficult questions.  The opinions expressed here are probably closer to the actual truth of the situation than what  Google would find on the interweb.

Elaborate. What has been said here that isn't available on the internet? That people from GIbraltar want to remain under British sovereignty? That's pretty easily accessible information.

koneguitarist

Having visited and worked in Gib with the Navy, it's still an extremely important strategic place. 
Those who control Gib, controls the Med. 
its British same as Falklands end of story. 
So many of these countries want UK to give territory back, yet they all have territory themselves. 
I say sod off! 
Like the Argies with Falkland isles, nothing to do with them whatso ever, so tell them all to sod off. 

seany65

Edit: Post removed after facts were checked.

Edit:  Spelling corrected.

ICBM

seany65 said:

(Edit - thank you .)

The point I'm making is that if the same sort of thing happened in Gibraltar - some sort of issue which makes it in the UK's overriding national interest to give it back - I'm sure the people there would find their democratic decision to remain part of the UK doesn't count for much either, no matter how much we think it should.

AliGorie

koneguitarist said:

Having visited and worked in Gib with the Navy, it's still an extremely important strategic place. 
Those who control Gib, controls the Med. 
its British same as Falklands end of story. 
So many of these countries want UK to give territory back, yet they all have territory themselves. 
I say sod off! 
Like the Argies with Falkland isles, nothing to do with them whatso ever, so tell them all to sod off. 

kone is right bout WHERE Gib is strategically  - also the Malvinas + the oil and gas + fishing rights (I saw a figure of 600K tonne a year). Google Falkland Oil.
EMPIRE 2 - yawn
but the EU ARE gonna shaft us - wouldn't U I mean listen to this -