Tone in fingers, not in gear...

rico

This is a ridiculous argument. 

siraxeman

dindude said:

I think what we’ve learnt (or already know)is that a great guitarist can make anything sound musical, a crap player can make a great guitar sound, er, crap. There’s a thread live that demonstrates the opposite to this one rather well!

Which thread....be interesting to see! I agree though....can you imagine how many of us would own say a Helix if all the demo's were by some 12yr old guitar noob ?

AustrianJohn

Can we please move any tonewood related discussions to Behind Closed Doors?

prowla

That bloke with the hat playing in the kitchen isn't bad - he could maybe have a career...

GoldenEraGuitars

Style? Check 
Skill? Absolutely 
Timing/sense of rhythm? Yip
Tone? Er no

Id imagine a lot of people with nice gear would answer that list the other way around  

Bridgehouse

Does the handcream you use have an effect on tone?

siraxeman

Bridgehouse said:

Does the handcream you use have an effect on tone?

No, but the clothes you wear damp the guitars body vibrations somewhat. And the shoes you wear even more so as they connect or disconnect you to the ground (ya know the flat earth) we stand on. Affects the bass allegedly. Ever wonder how Jazzers get that tone? Notice they have a penchant for woolly jumpers, corduroys (with leather patches in the knees) and hush puppy shoes - instant Jazz tone!! That's a big part of how they do it. Clothes matter!! Part of the tone chain that most people overlook. People in 'the know' say its the no.1 secret.

Garthy

dazzajl said:

WezV said:

dazzajl said:

The majority of people can hear playing, a small minority can hear guitar tone. 

That’s a bit ridiculous.  

Play the same track to people, recorded by the same guitarist with 2 different guitars.  Ask if they can a) hear a difference and b) have a preference.  The answer will be yes and yes.

............

We’re going to have to disagree here. I’m absolutely certain that the majority of folk wouldn’t be able to hear the difference if you swapped the make or model of a guitar on nearly any track. It’s just not what most people’s ears are trained to listen for. 

As players or collectors we tell ourselves there’s a need for single coils, buckers, some
P90s, or that a tele is significantly different to a strat but the truth is that your average gig goer or listener on the radio has no idea at all. 

Nor should they, because on the point of the music always being more important than fancy gear, I think you’re totally right. 

I find myself conflicted here. I've seen videos A/B'ing different things, and I've got six guitars in a rack that each have a different voice, however I always thought Def Leppard's 'Hysteria' was recorded on a triple humbucker'd LP & a Jackson with Dimarzios both into a big fuck off Marshall stack. It transpires both Steve and Phil used a 70's MIJ strat into a Rockman! You can power one of those on AA batteries ffs.

Placidcasual79

stimpsonslostson said:

I like this one- the tone isn't brilliant, but his talent IS. 

That is a big fat pile of guff. This isn't guitar playing its dick swinging. 

Voxman

ICBM said:

I've always said something like that - if tone is all in the fingers, give any great player of your choice a Strat and a JC-120 and see if they can make it sound like a PRS into a Dual Rectifier.

It *is* true that a great player will be able to sound very much like themselves with gear that you wouldn't usually expect them to use, but that's not quite the same thing.

You sir are a man after my own heart. I've been giving this analogy on forums for over 20 years (Although I use a Strat through the clean channel of a Fender Blackface vs a Gibson Les Paul through the high gain channel of a Marshall!)    I am so sick & tired of this hackneyed expression 'tone is in the fingers', it's not. SKILL is in the fingers, TOUCH is in the fingers....but tone is from the gear you're playing. A good player is simply making the best use of that gear.  

stickyfiddle

Of course now I realise that using the word "tone" would be hilariously divisive..!

Obviously noone can make a Strat into a Twin sound like a PRS into a Dual Rec using fingers alone. My point was much more to highlight that great phrasing and playing is (almost) nothing to do with the gear, and that's the thing that actually makes music make you feel something.

Tone is a stupid word anyway. 

Teetonetal

Voxman said:

ICBM said:

I've always said something like that - if tone is all in the fingers, give any great player of your choice a Strat and a JC-120 and see if they can make it sound like a PRS into a Dual Rectifier.

It *is* true that a great player will be able to sound very much like themselves with gear that you wouldn't usually expect them to use, but that's not quite the same thing.

You sir are a man after my own heart. I've been giving this analogy on forums for over 20 years (Although I use a Strat through the clean channel of a Fender Blackface vs a Gibson Les Paul through the high gain channel of a Marshall!)    I am so sick & tired of this hackneyed expression 'tone is in the fingers', it's not. SKILL is in the fingers, TOUCH is in the fingers....but tone is from the gear you're playing. A good player is simply making the best use of that gear.  

The problem here is really that dumb-ass word tone.

I think most people see it as the end product. So gear choice + player's skill = tone.

The misleading part is gear though. So much of it is so similar to make no diffeence to that final tone.  Other bits will have dramatic change. But the industry relies on us pretending that the subtleties between similar gear matter, when really they do not.

Flanging_Fred

TL:DR

Has anyone mentioned Hitler yet?

guitarfishbay

Tone isn’t a stupid word. People just can’t separate what it means from musical phrasing.

How you play a note is part of the tone - how hard you play affects the attack, decay, sustain etc. The dynamics are intertwined with the tone.

The order in which you play notes is the phrasing, not the tone.

carlos

I expect TGP is going bananas trying to find out what toy guitar that is and where they can buy it.

thegummy

guitarfishbay said:

Tone isn’t a stupid word. People just can’t separate what it means from musical phrasing.

How you play a note is part of the tone - how hard you play affects the attack, decay, sustain etc. The dynamics are intertwined with the tone.

The order in which you play notes is the phrasing, not the tone.

Yes!

No one can make a Strat into a blackface sound like a Les Paul into a Marshall but equally, if a great player steps off stage and someone else picks up their guitar still plugged in, even a fairly simple piece will have a different tone when played by each person, even if the notes played are the same because things like how the strings are hit, how much subtle bending, vibrato etc. 

Teetonetal

guitarfishbay said:

Tone isn’t a stupid word. People just can’t separate what it means from musical phrasing.

How you play a note is part of the tone - how hard you play affects the attack, decay, sustain etc. The dynamics are intertwined with the tone.

The order in which you play notes is the phrasing, not the tone.

See, I think people can't seperate it from gear... chasing tone through gear purchase is such a common idea. 

You can't recreate a guitarists sound through gear purchase alone. It's interwoven with a guitar players skill, touch, feel etc.

But people seem to think you can buy tone.

thegummy

Teetonetal said:

guitarfishbay said:

Tone isn’t a stupid word. People just can’t separate what it means from musical phrasing.

How you play a note is part of the tone - how hard you play affects the attack, decay, sustain etc. The dynamics are intertwined with the tone.

The order in which you play notes is the phrasing, not the tone.

See, I think people can't seperate it from gear... chasing tone through gear purchase is such a common idea. 

You can't recreate a guitarists sound through gear purchase alone. It's interwoven with a guitar players skill, touch, feel etc.

But people seem to think you can buy tone.

In any world I've been interested in, there's always that thing where people try to buy things rather than practice/do.

Basically, it's easy to buy something. I'd imagine a lifetime of marketers' influence doesn't help.

I feel I've started to become too obsessed with trying to have every gear base covered rather than concentrating on using what I've already got.

Maybe it's a form of procrastination in a sense. It's also that genuine worthwhile practicing, while enjoyable, is hard work so it can be tempting to "window shop" for gear rather than put in an extra hour's practice even though the latter would be more beneficial than even buying a new guitar.

guitarfishbay

Teetonetal said:

guitarfishbay said:

Tone isn’t a stupid word. People just can’t separate what it means from musical phrasing.

How you play a note is part of the tone - how hard you play affects the attack, decay, sustain etc. The dynamics are intertwined with the tone.

The order in which you play notes is the phrasing, not the tone.

See, I think people can't seperate it from gear... chasing tone through gear purchase is such a common idea. 

You can't recreate a guitarists sound through gear purchase alone. It's interwoven with a guitar players skill, touch, feel etc.

But people seem to think you can buy tone.

I think you can, to an extent.  It's just a very complicated topic without a definable x amount = y result kind of formula that applies, it's too subjective and ultimately buying more stuff might not even be the answer.

I kind of look at things from a weakest link perspective.

At a macro level - does a bigger amp sound different to a smaller amp?  Yes.  So you can buy tone in that way.  No amount of skill will make a 5 watt 1x10 combo sound like a 100 watt halfstack.  This has already been covered earlier in the discussion.

At a micro level - do 3 identically/close to identical spec'd guitars sound different to each other.  Possibly.  But the differences are going to be so small that the difference could easily be outweighed by something else in the chain - the player, definitely.  The setup/pickup heights on the instruments - definitely.  Changing for a very similar guitar isn't likely to have much impact, as it probably wasn't the weakest link in the chain.

The other thing I like to consider is that the only time my guitar tone really matters is in ensemble.  So in that scenario, there are additional limitations, and additional weak links.  Guitarists who spend a fortune chasing tone when their bass player has a poor setup are just not going to get a great result in context. 

And if you've got a keys player with a functioning left hand everyone is doomed.

newi123

It's all about misuse of 'tone'. The correct dictionary  meaning is in terms of the quality of a particular  sound.

So can a strat into a blackface sound like a les Paul into a Marshall - of course not. But that's sound, not tone.

Would two different players get a different tone from the same sound. Absolutely, and that's down to touch etc. That's tone.

I guess by extension tone can be applied to pieces of gear looking to give the same sound. Eg in comparing miab pedals.

It's one of the many things on here that i think we all ultimately think the same thing about, but love to argue over terminology.........