Cables really do make a difference!

chrishill901

Okay so I’m preaching to the converted here I’m sure but I have just discovered that cables make a more significant difference than I realised. I already knew that a good cable is worth the investment, that’s why I’ve had a pair of Monster cables for 10 years now. At the time I ran guitar to wah, wah to amp. When I started gigging and building big pedalboards I just bought cheap patch cables but never really noticed. I had switched to a gigging amp and since then I never didn’t use the board with the cheap patch cables in it.

Since buying a katana for my bedroom I’ve been plugging straight in with a Monster cable. Again I didn’t think anything of it, superb tone. I put a couple of pedals down the other night just to mess around and wired them in with my cheap patch cables and because I was going directly from my pure monster cable signal to the signal with the cheap patch cables in the same environment with the same guitar I suddenly noticed a significant degredation in tone. I mean significant! 

When end I got my PRS SE I noticed how less lively the other guitars I swore by sounded in comparison, the PRS sounded alive and has a beautiful tone. With cheap patch cables it sounds dull and dead. The difference isn’t noticeable on my other guitars but on the PRS it brings the tone down to the level of the other guitars! My other guitars are dark sounding but the PRS extremely bright so I suspect the cables affect the treble frequencies the most.

I knew I was sacrificing tone with the cheap patch cables when I was gigging but as I needed so many I couldn’t afford it and when I AB’d it the difference was noticeable but not much. With this rig though the difference is quite something!

Note: I tried each pedal individually just using monster cables to rule out tone suck from one of the pedals. It’s definitely the cables!!

ICBM

Instrument cables very much do make a difference to the top-end - it’s due to their capacitance, which is like a small tone control permanently turned down. For a couple of short patch cables to make that much obvious difference they must be really poor, but it’s certainly possible.

Please note, just because instrument cables make a difference - because the guitar is an unbuffered source, and the cable capacitance is large enough to be in the range which affects the sound when the pickups have to drive it - it does *not* follow that speaker and mains cables also do . The electrical conditions are totally different.

Maynehead

I wouldn’t be so quick to blame cheap patch cables... by adding a pedal board you’ve more than doubled the length of cable from your guitar to amp, plus you’ve got extra pedal circuitry in the way. All this will attenuate your treble more than when you’re plugged straight in, regardless of cable quality.

Do you have a buffer on the board? If so is it a high quality one?

Have you tried plugging straight into your amp using one of the “cheap” patch cables? You might find that it will sound even better than your monster cable due to the shorter length of wire.

ICBM

Maynehead said:

I wouldn’t be so quick to blame cheap patch cables... by adding a pedal board you’ve more than doubled the length of cable from your guitar to amp, plus you’ve got extra pedal circuitry in the way. All this will attenuate your treble more than when you’re plugged straight in, regardless of cable quality.

That was my first thought too - especially given that it's Monster cables, which in my experience are far from the lowest capacitance - but if he tried it with each pedal individually and the two long cables, and it didn't sound as bad, then it must be the patch cables.

Something interesting I discovered a while back is that *plugs* have quite significant capacitance, some types much worse than others. In a short patch cable this can be larger than the cable capacitance. Annoyingly - given that they're the best in most other ways - Neutrik NP2Cs are the worst I found.

The chap at Vertex pedals has reported the same thing. (Yes I know about all the other stuff related to this brand - it doesn't mean it's wrong.)

Danny1969

I'm surprised there's significant capacitance in a jack, the two conductors are quite a distance apart in dielectric terms and it's a small conductor surface area ..... a few pf for a typical Neutrik at most I would have thought but I could be wrong

I think with pedals boards the problem is often poor contact between the jacks and sockets, cheap patch cables often aren't that high in capacitance generally being made of thin conductors with a lot of insulation between the core conductor and shield, a better made cable with larger core conductor and the same insulation would actually have more pf per metre 

jpfamps

Most of the problems I see on boards with solderless patch cables (or conectionless patch cables).

This is assume is due to their higher resistance, especially if not constructed "properly".

Lestratcaster

You'll always sound better with the shortest distance from your guitar to the amp.

I try to keep my signal path as short as I can, I don't really use much effects. Also been using Mogami gold cables for nearly 10 years now without a single problem. Clear and reliable tone night after night.

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

I'm surprised there's significant capacitance in a jack, the two conductors are quite a distance apart in dielectric terms and it's a small conductor surface area ..... a few pf for a typical Neutrik at most I would have thought but I could be wrong

I'm pretty sure was about 40pF on the one I measured. That doesn't sound like *that* much, until you think that on a typical 6" patch lead made from 100pF/foot cable, the plugs have almost twice the capacitance of the cable.

My guess would be that the Neutrik is particularly bad because the centre conductor is larger diameter than normal, the outer metal sleeve is thicker (that's why they're strong) and the insulator is thinner.

Lestratcaster said:

You'll always sound better with the shortest distance from your guitar to the amp.

You'll always sound *brighter* with the shortest distance from the guitar to the amp, which is not necessarily the same thing .

Hendrix used about 120' of high-capacitance cable - four curly cables, which are about 30' long if you pull them out straight - and three pedals, only one of which was true bypass... and he sounded quite good.

In fact if you connect a Strat to a cranked Super Lead with a short low-capacitance cable, it will sound so bright and shrill it will make your eyes water .

Lestratcaster

I think Angus Young pretty much plugs straight into his amps, albeit a wireless system. Sounds good to me.

Modulus_Amps

Lestratcaster said:

I think Angus Young pretty much plugs straight into his amps, albeit a wireless system. Sounds good to me.

Is that a joke? he uses the wireless to boost the amp too.. it has its own documented thing going on

chrishill901

ICBM said:

Instrument cables very much do make a difference to the top-end - it’s due to their capacitance, which is like a small tone control permanently turned down. For a couple of short patch cables to make that much obvious difference they must be really poor, but it’s certainly possible.

Please note, just because instrument cables make a difference - because the guitar is an unbuffered source, and the cable capacitance is large enough to be in the range which affects the sound when the pickups have to drive it - it does *not* follow that speaker and mains cables also do . The electrical conditions are totally different.

I have a sensitive ear - I wouldn't say 'obvious' but to me quite significant. These are the patch cables in question:

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Jack-Jack-PRO-Patch-Cable-30cm-Pack-of-6/GCH

The signal path was Guitar > Boss TU3 > Morley Dragon 2 Wah > Amp with a 30cm cheap patch cable between the boss and the Morley. Maybe its psychosomatic? I could definitely tell a difference. I think i'm going to order a few higher quality patch cables and see if it does make a difference or if its just the result of me adding an extra 2m of cable over going direct to the amp.

Im building a small pedalboard which will comprise of a Boss TU3, Xotic EP Booster, Morley wah and Line6 M5 - I think I'll always notice a difference over plugging in direct because of this.


Non of the above is a surprise at all, I think it's just important to realise that your signal path is only as good as the weakest link. If thats a particular pedal you can't do without then fair enough (I had to sell my Whammy DT because the tone suck was beyond acceptable to me) but don't let your weakest link be something as simple as a patch cable or guitar lead!

ICBM

chrishill901 said:

I have a sensitive ear - I wouldn't say 'obvious' but to me quite significant. These are the patch cables in question:

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Jack-Jack-PRO-Patch-Cable-30cm-Pack-of-6/GCH

The signal path was Guitar > Boss TU3 > Morley Dragon 2 Wah > Amp with a 30cm cheap patch cable between the boss and the Morley. Maybe its psychosomatic? I could definitely tell a difference. I think i'm going to order a few higher quality patch cables and see if it does make a difference or if its just the result of me adding an extra 2m of cable over going direct to the amp.

Im building a small pedalboard which will comprise of a Boss TU3, Xotic EP Booster, Morley wah and Line6 M5 - I think I'll always notice a difference over plugging in direct because of this.

Non of the above is a surprise at all, I think it's just important to realise that your signal path is only as good as the weakest link. If thats a particular pedal you can't do without then fair enough (I had to sell my Whammy DT because the tone suck was beyond acceptable to me) but don't let your weakest link be something as simple as a patch cable or guitar lead!

No, that is a surprise... the Boss is an excellent buffer, and for the following patch cable to make any difference at all it would have to be more or less shorted. Likewise, since the Morley is also buffered the long cable to the amp makes no difference either.

If you're really interested in testing this sort of thing properly, you need to get a true bypass loop-switching unit so you can directly A/B things on the fly - it's amazing what then makes no difference at all which made an "obvious" difference when you just unplugged things and swapped them . (Or more rarely, the other way round.) You can very quickly test cables by putting the suspect cable in the loop and switching it in and out of the circuit.

The bypass in the Whammy is notoriously bad and you don't need to have 'magic ears' to hear that one.

chrishill901

Good job I have a true bypass 4 channel looper then! I never thought to use that, thanks! I’ll give it a try tonight!

im starting to suspect it’s psychosomatic... however the overall message that you should use decent cables still stands 

chrishill901

EDIT! I just remembered I added the BBE Sonic Stomp after the wah (with one of those cables) as I wanted to see if it made a difference with the Katana... It was off as I decided it killed the dynamics somewhat. It shouldn’t make a difference as it was true bypass but maybe one of those cables after the buffered wah did something?

Lestratcaster

Modulus_Amps said:

Lestratcaster said:

I think Angus Young pretty much plugs straight into his amps, albeit a wireless system. Sounds good to me.

Is that a joke? he uses the wireless to boost the amp too.. it has its own documented thing going on

No it’s not a joke. I was saying how short his signal path is as he doesn’t use many effects.

robinbowes

Lestratcaster said:

Modulus_Amps said:

Lestratcaster said:

I think Angus Young pretty much plugs straight into his amps, albeit a wireless system. Sounds good to me.

Is that a joke? he uses the wireless to boost the amp too.. it has its own documented thing going on

No it’s not a joke. I was saying how short his signal path is as he doesn’t use many effects.

Read this: http://solodallas.com/the-schaffer-replica

ESBlonde

I wizzed @Danny1969. on occasion I have needed to take apart a pedal board after a long period of use and clean the jack plugs and sockets with contact cleaner, a rag and a few Q-tips. On one occasion i had to replace a cheap pedal after about 7 years use because the input socket no longer applied enough pressure/tension to make a reliable contact on the plug and being one of those soldered to a PCB enclosed sockets it was just easier to replace the damn thing with one that had all the plastic knobs still on it.

bermudianbrit

how does one judge a good buffer and a bad buffer? Both ends of my chain are tc electronic, and I have their buffers turned on as they're right before the long cables. Most of the rest of the board are tbp, save for the Wa, which is a Dunlop (apparently  that pedal can kill tone but I've not had issues personally)

Stuckfast

Someone did a ludicrous amount of research into the AC/DC guitar sound and concluded that a specific model of wireless system was the key -- early wireless systems were anything but transparent. They've now released a pedal which is supposed to recreate the effect.

http://solodallas.com/the-schaffer-replica

ICBM

robinbowes said:

Lestratcaster said:

Modulus_Amps said:

Lestratcaster said:

I think Angus Young pretty much plugs straight into his amps, albeit a wireless system. Sounds good to me.

Is that a joke? he uses the wireless to boost the amp too.. it has its own documented thing going on

No it’s not a joke. I was saying how short his signal path is as he doesn’t use many effects.

Read this: http://solodallas.com/the-schaffer-replica

Exactly. Even if his guitar is connected to the wireless transmitter by the shortest possible cable, and the receiver likewise to the amp, that is not a 'short' signal path because of the audio processing in the wireless units.

A digital wireless is far closer, since there will be much less alteration of the audio signal - essentially none, as long as the A/D and D/A converters are good. This is its own problem, since the result tends to be very shrill - so many digital wireless units have 'cable simulation' built in.

Lestratcaster

Yeah but it’s still shorter than someone like Josh from RHCP’s pedalboard!