Cables really do make a difference!

Stuckfast

Lestratcaster said:

Yeah but it’s still shorter than someone like Josh from RHCP’s pedalboard!

That's not the point -- the wireless transmitter and receiver use a process called companding which affects the signal fairly dramatically -- probably a lot more than just running it through a few pedals on bypass!

Lestratcaster

Has a simpler set up then, kinda. Lol.

Sassafras

If it wasn't for that Schaffer thing AC/DC wouldn't have got anywhere, they'd still be playing in bars for pennies.

ICBM

Lestratcaster said:

Yeah but it’s still shorter than someone like Josh from RHCP’s pedalboard!

It depends how his board is set up - if it's done with something like a Bradshaw switching system or a Gig Rig, every pedal is in its own separate bypass loop, so when everything is off the signal path will actually be shorter and affect the tone less than just that one wireless unit. It's not at all the same as just running everything through twenty pedals in series .

bermudianbrit said:

how does one judge a good buffer and a bad buffer? Both ends of my chain are tc electronic, and I have their buffers turned on as they're right before the long cables. Most of the rest of the board are tbp, save for the Wa, which is a Dunlop (apparently  that pedal can kill tone but I've not had issues personally)

Really the only way to tell a good buffer is to compare it to the straight-through tone with no following loading, so if you compare guitar into amp with guitar into buffer into short cable into amp, that should tell you.

There is a slight problem with some buffers (eg Boss) in that they sound good on their own, but because they very very slightly reduce the signal level - not enough for you to notice - when you run several of them in series the cumulative result is quite a noticeable loss of level, which is still too small to be obvious as a 'volume reduction' and shows up more as a perceived worse tone.

thegummy

ICBM said:

chrishill901 said:

I have a sensitive ear - I wouldn't say 'obvious' but to me quite significant. These are the patch cables in question:

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Jack-Jack-PRO-Patch-Cable-30cm-Pack-of-6/GCH

The signal path was Guitar > Boss TU3 > Morley Dragon 2 Wah > Amp with a 30cm cheap patch cable between the boss and the Morley. Maybe its psychosomatic? I could definitely tell a difference. I think i'm going to order a few higher quality patch cables and see if it does make a difference or if its just the result of me adding an extra 2m of cable over going direct to the amp.

Im building a small pedalboard which will comprise of a Boss TU3, Xotic EP Booster, Morley wah and Line6 M5 - I think I'll always notice a difference over plugging in direct because of this.

Non of the above is a surprise at all, I think it's just important to realise that your signal path is only as good as the weakest link. If thats a particular pedal you can't do without then fair enough (I had to sell my Whammy DT because the tone suck was beyond acceptable to me) but don't let your weakest link be something as simple as a patch cable or guitar lead!

No, that is a surprise... the Boss is an excellent buffer, and for the following patch cable to make any difference at all it would have to be more or less shorted. Likewise, since the Morley is also buffered the long cable to the amp makes no difference either.

If you're really interested in testing this sort of thing properly, you need to get a true bypass loop-switching unit so you can directly A/B things on the fly - it's amazing what then makes no difference at all which made an "obvious" difference when you just unplugged things and swapped them . (Or more rarely, the other way round.) You can very quickly test cables by putting the suspect cable in the loop and switching it in and out of the circuit.

The bypass in the Whammy is notoriously bad and you don't need to have 'magic ears' to hear that one.

I wonder if everyone realises how unreliable it is to compare subtleties in a sound they're hearing with the memory of a sound they heard a minute ago.

I think that, like you say, you need to be able to instantly switch back and forth between the two several times or else we just wouldn't remember it exactly enough to compare properly.

Obviously there's also the bias of expectation where, if we expect something will sound a way then we might think we hear it.

That's part of the problem with minute subtleties in sound.

Thankfully, like sassafras hilariously pointed out, it doesn't really matter  

Maynehead

So you have 2 buffered pedals in the chain, which is the most likely cause of the change in your tone.

All buffered pedals will change your tone in some way, some are worse than others, and some don't stack well with others, but even with just one buffered pedal I can hear the difference, and so should you if you have a sensitive ear.

I still maintain that the patch cables are not the main culprits. You can verify this by trying the following:

1. guitar--monster cable-->wah--monster cable-->amp
2. guitar--patch cable-->wah--monster cable-->amp

and see if you can hear a difference. If anything, #2 should have more treble than #1. This will prove that the "cheap" patch cable is not the issue.

Now try the following:

1. guitar--monster cable-->wah--monster cable-->amp
3. guitar--monster cable-->true bypass pedal--monster cable-->amp

You should be able to hear that #1 will have an altered tone due to the buffer, compared to the bypassed tone of #3. This will prove that the buffers are in fact the cause of the issue.

Danny1969

I often wonder why no attempt was ever made to reduce the impedance of the output of a typical guitar. I mean originally there was little need to, it was invented and plugged straight into an amp on a short cable but as things changed, stages got bigger and hundreds of pedals were invented you would have thought either having a simple unity gain buffer in the guitar would have been seen as an improvement or maybe changing the impedance with a small transformer and use a 3 conductor cable balanced driving into a differential first stage would be idea to cut out any common mode noise as well as making the capacitance of the cable irrelevant.  

ICBM

Gibson did actually try low-impedance electronics in the early 1970s, on the Les Paul Recording/Personal/Signature guitars. They do sound very good, but it's not quite the traditional sound guitarists were used to, and it worked less well for the more raw overdriven blues-based music of the time - although the Les Paul Signature does sound more conventional and when set to high impedance (via an onboard transformer) it's capable of a pretty high output.

prlgmnr

Someone who knows more than me can probably settle this one way or another, but I'd have thought a buffer could "smooth over" the differences between different guitars a little bit as opposed to guitar straight into amp.

The other thing is that sometimes just where you're standing in the room can make a difference to your tone, hence you might feel like something causes a massive change but it's just because you moved.

ourmaninthenorth

I'm currently using Zaolla ultra pure solid silver series "Authority" cable. It's noticeably brighter than the Cornish cables I've used for years. 

I like it. 

ICBM

prlgmnr said:

Someone who knows more than me can probably settle this one way or another, but I'd have thought a buffer could "smooth over" the differences between different guitars a little bit as opposed to guitar straight into amp.

It depends where the buffer is in relation to the total length of cable, and what the amp input impedance is. Both of these actually change the tone of the guitar pickup, because it's a passive unbuffered source and the capacitance of the cable and the impedance of the load are as much 'part of the guitar' as the volume and tone controls, and load the pickup in the same way.

If you buffer fairly soon after the guitar (eg at the start of the pedalboard) it will make the result more consistent.

richardhomer

As @ICBM says - the TU-3 is buffering the rest of the signal chain. Running a ‘very’ bright amp - I can’t tell ANY difference in leads after mine in the signal chain.

p90fool

To add to the confusion, it's not even necessarily a problem - when I play my Tele straight into a Princeton in my country band I ditch the wireless and break out my Vox curly lead.

It's anything but transparent, but that's the point. 

ChrisMusic

A bit of background, explained far better than I could...

A Discussion of Buffered vs. True Bypass Pedals, with Pete Thorn and Thomas Nordegg

Duration 3:45

https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOWeoizp4y0

Buffers, Cables, Capacitance, and more... a demo by Pete Thorn (FOR GEEKS ONLY) An uber-geeky demonstration of the effects of cable length and buffers on your guitar tone.

Duration 6:19

https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNU5NZQGF2Y

NelsonP

...begs the question. Why aren't guitars buffered?

robinbowes

NelsonP said:

...begs the question. Why aren't guitars buffered?

Power. 

R. 

Maynehead

NelsonP said:

...begs the question. Why aren't guitars buffered?

If you get a guitar with active pickups they are effectively buffered... but people don't like having to put batteries in their guitars.

kt66

I only use Nordost Odin, bi-wired.    

p90fool

NelsonP said:

...begs the question. Why aren't guitars buffered?

They are, if you use a wireless system. 

ICBM

NelsonP said:

...begs the question. Why aren't guitars buffered?

Because it’s not really that necessary, and players have got used to the very particular sound of them as they are, including the way they interact with the cable.

As long as you understand when you need a buffer - which is really only when you’re using all true-bypass pedals, unless your guitar cable is really unusually long - then it’s not a problem.

If the fashion for true bypass hadn’t developed then it wouldn’t be an issue at all.