Distance Selling Regulations

Sporky

Lots of shops have return policies that aren't legal. They don't get to refuse your rights - it's their policies that are wrong.

guitars4you

Strat54 said:

midlifecrisis said:

Strat54 said:

Yes I'm sure.

Which say ' You can only return non-faulty goods for an exchange or refund if the retailer has a returns policy. It's worth noting that shops aren't required by law to have a returns policy, but if they do have one they must stick to it'

They also state 

What if I have just changed my mind? Retailers are under no obligation to give a refund if the item is of good quality.

You can't buy software, dvds and perishable goods and return those either if you don't like them. 

i think you are confusing it with if you buy something from a retail shop, mail order or online have different rules

Oh well, so glad I sold up before 2015! Mark you need to change your policy! 

Fully appreciate the letter of the law and yes we have to abide by it as and when required to do so, with reference to mail order transactions - I can only think of 1 return during 2017 and only 2 in the last 12 months - One was due to an unsuitable neck profile and one with a fret issue  - as many know I don't actually have a click to buy button - You still call me, the old fashion way and hopefully this ensures less of an impersonal account number been allocated to you and more of a human touch - This way I hope it neglects less returns via a) the right product choice in the first place and b) set up of the goods to your choice

The issue of a 14 day return is that it is seriously open to abuse - Yes we have to abide by it, but come on, does it seriously take 14 days to decide you either like or dislike it - On a one to one basis we try to ensure that both parties are serious and respectful to each other and we can handle any returns within an agreed period that is suitable to both parties

The other side to the coin is what are you expected to do with a returned guitar that was new when sent to you but is now 14 days old ? - Do we still sell it as new ? - Legally we are entitled to - Morally I somehow feel it is wrong - Been pedantic, the guitar has to come back as sold, so new showroom untouched condition - So no hint of a pick mark, graze, finger mark etc etc, so there is a safety get out option if someone wanted to take the proverbial and gig it for 5 nights 

I'm only a small specialist retailer and not a volume box shifter of unchecked goods - If I have to abide by a legal 14 day return policy then I would have to do so, no matter if I like it or not - But I seriously try to minimize any issues before hand - Granted you don't get to know you'll like the guitar before you try it, but we all know it doesn't take 14 days to test drive it - And again respectfully it doesn't need to be gigged or rehearsed to determine it will do the job - An in store customer doesn't get that option to try live

I'm confident in most instances, that if both parties respect each other we could run a returns policy without the need of the letter of the law-  Yet it is there to support both parties if required - Bottom line is I want and need customers to return another day and spread a good word, but you'll never win them all, ever - To be fair it will be easy for either party to take the proverbial but that is not what I am about - respect each other and avoid issues is a better policy IMO

midlifecrisis

personally, i wouldnt feel right tying a guitar at home and returning it. if i wasnt sure id make the effort and go to the shop. If id ordered it and found i didnt like it i would return it the next day, as said, you dont need 14 days. I have never returned a guitar.

thegummy

I totally feel for retailers who lose out due to this.

I'm still unsure if I want to do it, despite it being my right.

The problem with trying in a shop is that it's a short time and the environment is unfamiliar so you can't compare the sound to what you're used to hearing and can't really have a proper play.

There's a company that sells glasses who send frames to try on then you send them back once you've decided which you like and they make that style for you. Could be good for guitars if they had an example guitar you could take away for a few days and if you don't like it at least it doesn't spoil the actual stock. Obviously it couldn't be too specific in the model, I'd be happy with "a les Paul" in my example, doesn't have to be specific.

My other option is to buy a second hand Epiphone just to see if I like the LP in general then I can sell it without much loss and buy a better one.

Strat54

I'm on Mark's side, the law allowing 14 days is ridiculous. How much/long did @mgaw play his guitar before returning it? I didn't see any detail from the gov.uk website about it having to be received in the same condition as supplied ie new. That is not realistically possible. People will start to abuse this more as time progresses and word spreads. There's seems to be nothing to stop a musician gigging the guitar and returning it. The law would probably allow him to try the instrument out in the environment for which it was intended. 
One thing I did notice on the official website was that if a retailer fails to inform you about your right to cancel during the purchase then you are entitled to return the item up to 12 months from date of purchase! Wtf? 

Three-ColourSunburst

I think this is one area where the big retailers are at an advantage. They sell lots of gear so returns are just a part of the numbers game, so they can offer a 30-day return period (such as Thomann) or even 60 days, as is the case with Bax.

Many of the big retailers seem to mark returned items as 'B stock', reselling them at a small discount. If the goods are returned in a not as new condition, Bax, for one, reserve the right to make a deduction, which is taken from the refund and also deducted from the 'B stock' price.

This seems to be a reasonable approach, as I think most people would be very happy to be charged 10 or 20% of the sale price for using something for a few weeks that they then decided they didn't want to keep, but by this point was obviously used, and plenty of others would be happy to buy a returned item for an equivalent discount, especially seeing as the warranty is the same. On the Bax site I have seen as many as 3 or 4 'B stock' items of the same piece of equipment, with a range of prices ranging from 'almost the same as brand new' to 25% off. Take your pick!

Sporky

Part of the reason for the regulations is that some shops would send out the crap stuff for mail orders. For all that people are complaining about punters taking advantage of the shops, it was the other way around when the shops could get away with it.

thegummy

Strat54 said:

I'm on Mark's side, the law allowing 14 days is ridiculous. How much/long did @mgaw play his guitar before returning it? I didn't see any detail from the gov.uk website about it having to be received in the same condition as supplied ie new. That is not realistically possible. People will start to abuse this more as time progresses and word spreads. There's seems to be nothing to stop a musician gigging the guitar and returning it. The law would probably allow him to try the instrument out in the environment for which it was intended. 
One thing I did notice on the official website was that if a retailer fails to inform you about your right to cancel during the purchase then you are entitled to return the item up to 12 months from date of purchase! Wtf? 

I don't think the length of time really matters much does it? I think whether someone had it for 2 days or 14 days, it doesn't really change how new it is.

BTW I don't think this is a new thing and the word will spread, I think it's been in place for years and seems to work fine.

Still, I don't know if I would feel good about returning it myself. If something was significantly different than I expected it to be when I ordered it then I'd have no issue sending it back but that won't be the case, I have a good idea what the guitar will be like, I just don't know if I'll like it.

Joking aside, there is a guitar shop that I felt "done me" out of 50 quid a couple of years ago, I don't think I would feel so bad returning to them.

Strat54

I see Guitar Guitar posted a 34% drop in profit this year. Maybe too many flaky customers returning goods

Teetonetal

Sporky said:

Part of the reason for the regulations is that some shops would send out the crap stuff for mail orders. For all that people are complaining about punters taking advantage of the shops, it was the other way around when the shops could get away with it.

Yes. GuitarGuitar for instance. They have sent me a couple of new items that have looked like crap. 

When confronted they just say well return it if you don't like it... they keep selling until they find someone timid enough to not return it.

If retailers want a share of online business then they have to respect the law.

Actually I'm pretty dissspointed to see some of the retailers pretending to have policies that don't follow the letter of the law. That is also trying to take advantage of their own customers and pressure them into a quick descicion.

Teetonetal

Strat54 said:

I see Guitar Guitar posted a 34% drop in profit this year. Maybe too many flaky customers returning goods

More likely because they are complete shit heads who don't give a toss about their customers. I hate that shop so much.

guitars4you

thegummy said:

I totally feel for retailers who lose out due to this.

I'm still unsure if I want to do it, despite it being my right.

The problem with trying in a shop is that it's a short time and the environment is unfamiliar so you can't compare the sound to what you're used to hearing and can't really have a proper play.

If you are doing it for all the right reasons then don't feel guilty - buy with confidence from the right dealer and hopefully both parties respect each other

guitars4you

Teetonetal said:

If retailers want a share of online business then they have to respect the law.

Actually I'm pretty dissspointed to see some of the retailers pretending to have policies that don't follow the letter of the law. That is also trying to take advantage of their own customers and pressure them into a quick descicion.

I fully appreciate there are dealers who are just box shifters - Goods not checked and just put a label on the box as per Amazon - yes they might offer an excellent return policy, but I don't call this a service, it is just a policy - They can offer no additional information regarding the product, it is just uplifted from a manufactures web site - Many just take  a product of the shop floor and send it as it is - I think if the customer checks out as much product info as they can, then buys from an appropriate store then far less to go wrong and just more of that 'is it for me' - I think we all know who many of the good guys are and who are just box shifters with little interest in you or the product - It does depend on the type of product as well - I suppose I'm just talking more about the guitar itself as that is all I sell

many good stores will adjust the set up as required after talking to the customer - evaluate the guitar before hand - Every guitar is played and set up as required - talk to you about the purchase and I certainly feel this is more of a service than just a label on a box - Maybe many don't want this, but I have no intention whatsoever of going down the 'Amazon' box shifting approach - It is souless

Interesting thought - Like many other dealers I offer a commission sale option for customers - So let's assume it is now your used. but mint condition £4000 guitar that has now been sent out on a mail order transaction - I pay you when sold and I might not know when that is - Might be 14 days or so - Then it might come back and we all hope it comes back with no additional grazes - How would you feel about your guitar been sent out on trial for 14 days ?

SimonC

We are all grownups (mostly).
if you need to ask the question if it is morally acceptable to use the distance selling rules just to try out gear, then you really have answered your own question.

Marks policy of ensuring the customer is happy before the sale is the most common sense approach.

Waiting 14 days before deciding to send a guitar back is abusing the guidelines rather than using them.

JAYJO

What if i receive a box from a box shifter and claimed it only contained an empty guitar case? What if i received a box from a box shifter and it did only contain a guitar case. ? On another bum note! 
Spent half hour dinner hour yesterday in asda picking 12 bottles of wine labelled 6 for £25 on numerous shelves..
got to the till and the mrs checked the cashier honoured the offer. the cashier told her the offer ended monday!. This was on wednesday.
The Mrs went nuts as we were surrounded by shop staff removing the bottles from our trolly. It was embarrassing and we asked to see the manager. The girl with the radio said shes spoken to the manager and the offer is finished.
 My Mrs told her she wants to speak to the manager herself. Shop staff moved on and she was left waiting. Manager couldnt be contacted. tossers. I wonder how many people bought bottles of this wine and not checked their receipts at the till. I thought if they had it on display and labelled as a sale price then they should honour it.?  ASDA. 

aord43

JAYJO said:

What if i receive a box from a box shifter and claimed it only contained an empty guitar case? What if i received a box from a box shifter and it did only contain a guitar case. ? On another bum note! 
Spent half hour dinner hour yesterday in asda picking 12 bottles of wine labelled 6 for £25 on numerous shelves..
got to the till and the mrs checked the cashier honoured the offer. the cashier told her the offer ended monday!. This was on wednesday.
The Mrs went nuts as we were surrounded by shop staff removing the bottles from our trolly. It was embarrassing and we asked to see the manager. The girl with the radio said shes spoken to the manager and the offer is finished.
 My Mrs told her she wants to speak to the manager herself. Shop staff moved on and she was left waiting. Manager couldnt be contacted. tossers. I wonder how many people bought bottles of this wine and not checked their receipts at the till. I thought if they had it on display and labelled as a sale price then they should honour it.?  ASDA. 

No, IANAL (or a retailer) but as I understand it the displayed price, in store on on a web site etc. is classed as an "invitation to treat".  They are still within their rights to change their mind up to the point that the sale is done, or the order is accepted online.
ie. online they can say no at the checkout stage, but can't do so after it's been confirmed.  In a shop they can say, no sorry that's a mistake.  Big shops will sometimes honour it, if they have mistakenly shown the wrong price.  Big supermarkets will often soak it up.  I am surprised that in this case Asda didn't check the shelf labelling with you.  If it is clearly shown, and didn't have an expiry date, I would have thought they would let you have it.  The manager might well have done if they had been there.

aord43

On the 14 days thing, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable.  As a consumer I am often inefficient or can't get to the post office etc for a while so 14 days is at the top end of a reasonable length of time I think, for an item that is not faulty.  It doesn't mean I would be using something for 14 days before returning it.  It is supposed to be in new condition though as I understand it.

Having said that I don't actually think I have ever returned something just because I changed my mind in any case...or maybe once.  I'd think twice about something like a guitar though, because shipping is a hassle.
I am not advocating abusing the policy but retailers should just accept it as part of doing business.  It makes for good customer relations - I know they are huge but the likes of M&S or John Lewis have a good reputation because people know they can always take stuff back.

guitars4you

aord43 said:

On the 14 days thing, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable.  As a consumer I am often inefficient or can't get to the post office etc for a while so 14 days is at the top end of a reasonable length of time I think, for an item that is not faulty.  It doesn't mean I would be using something for 14 days before returning it.  It is supposed to be in new condition though as I understand it.

just a thought on the 14 day return - by the letter of the law you can keep the goods for 14 days then decide to return - You then have a further 14 days to actually return - The dealer then has up to 14 days to refund, once the goods are back with them - Total time 42 days plus 2-4 for shipping to and fro - call it 46 days - chances are that in that time your credit card company will have billed you and if not paid on time you'll incur interest charges - I bet to avoid such charges that many will wish for a quicker process

mgaw

Strat54 said:

I'm on Mark's side, the law allowing 14 days is ridiculous. How much/long did @mgaw play his guitar before returning it? I didn't see any detail from the gov.uk website about it having to be received in the same condition as supplied ie new. That is not realistically possible. People will start to abuse this more as time progresses and word spreads. There's seems to be nothing to stop a musician gigging the guitar and returning it. The law would probably allow him to try the instrument out in the environment for which it was intended. 
One thing I did notice on the official website was that if a retailer fails to inform you about your right to cancel during the purchase then you are entitled to return the item up to 12 months from date of purchase! Wtf? 

@Strat54 ;I played it for a couple of hours then contacted the seller and went from there, it was on its way back within 2 days, i would add that its only the 2nd time i have returned a guitar in years of buying online...1 point that is being overlooked here is this.

Without the internet i would never have seen the guitars in question, the sellers enjoy unparralled exposure world wide of their goods for sale.  For this to work there must surely be some give and take in some situations, spending a lot of money on something as personal as a guitar without playing it in person has risks,  I am always happy to pay the postage costs BOTH ways, the abuse happens both ways and i would bet that on the whole sellers take the piss WAY more than the buyers do.

I spend many thousands every year on gear, its hard earned money, i live a long way from anywhere, i enjoy the access the internet gives me to a wide stock of instruments etc...i want to know that if i need to, i can return something, the alternative is what?

guitars4you

mgaw said:

@Strat54 ;I played it for a couple of hours then contacted the seller and went from there, it was on its way back within 2 days, i would add that its only the 2nd time i have returned a guitar in years of buying online...1 point that is being overlooked here is this.

Without the internet i would never have seen the guitars in question, the sellers enjoy unparralled exposure world wide of their goods for sale.  For this to work there must surely be some give and take in some situations, spending a lot of money on something as personal as a guitar without playing it in person has risks,  I am always happy to pay the postage costs BOTH ways, the abuse happens both ways and i would bet that on the whole sellers take the piss WAY more than the buyers do.

I spend many thousands every year on gear, its hard earned money, i live a long way from anywhere, i enjoy the access the internet gives me to a wide stock of instruments etc...i want to know that if i need to, i can return something, the alternative is what?

totally agree with this especially regarding an honorable and respectful point of trust, about any give and take -

with regards to most music shops, that are regularly discussed on FB, then most care - In most instances, the owner is part of the daily shop floor activity and knows what goes on and cares about his store, business and customers - We might get it wrong the odd day - but we care enough to correct as required - I dare say in 99% of the mail order transaction we handle, there are no issues - Sadly it is not true of all products and internet sellers hence the extra protection that is required