Axe_FX II Rigs, or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Digital Modelling.

guitarfishbay

Technically everything has been quantum-ed, I think quantum is how the tube models work inside the amp models - I don't think the amps have changed?

G3 required new measurements from the amps.  As he doesn't explain we have no idea if he just discovered a new way of measuring, or if he needed new types of measurements for new modelling parameters etc.

That is my understanding of it anyway.

It definitely has an aspect of PR to it too.

AndyJP

Yup, PR angle for sure.

Guess it's best to try it.  Will give it a shot this evo... 

guitarfishbay

I think realistically people were expecting large EQ changes, but that wouldn't make sense if the models were pretty close already.

So then that leaves improvements to feel.  A lot of feel to do with bass you don't even notice til you're playing fairly loud (as in you'd miss it at quiet practice levels).  For example: does it thump properly - well nothing thumps at low volume.  You have to get some volume to do that.

In terms of feel it does feel good - but honestly you can't A/B without having two Axe FX units side by side.  It takes a couple of minutes to load up a FW and in that time you won't remember exactly how something was before.

paulmapp8306

As I understand things, G3 was about measuring and modelling the complete amp structure. quantum is only about modelling the pre and power valve characteristics. That is modeling how the valve amplifies. You can hear that in the hair, note trails, attack etc.

It's not going to change eq, tone etc too much. It is supposed to, and does change dynamics and how they respond to playing and changes in input signal strengths. It is however. As noted. Difficult to nail in an a v b way due to the time taken to update fw.

AndyJP

Fair enough.... cheers for the info

Guys hoping to pick your brains for some advice over next few weeks. 

I'm playing in a band again (no drummer yet). I've been running straight to the pa at various rehearsal rooms. 

My patches aren't sounding great through the p.a. Understand it's down to my patches and dialling them in at volume tho.    

I'm at a crossroads with it. I either persevere with dialling it in loud or sell it and get a tube amp. 

paulmapp8306

Is the PA always the same?

The two problems I have with going into a PA. Firstly every PA is different - so you patches will sound different every time.  The better quality the PA is - the less those differences are, but still different.  Its why guys on big stages, or where everything goes through a desk still rely on the sound engineer -he can tune your patch to the room/PA.

The second issue - is that quality.  The cheap PAs you get in rehearsal rooms are quite honestly pathetic by today's standards.  Its difficult to even get a half decent vocal though them a lot of the time - let alone anything else.  The AFX is a quality product, and the weekest link is quite possibly the PA. 

If your using the same PA every time - like a band PA, at least you know the limitations and can tune patches to that PA as best you can.  Ultimately it still may not be good enough for you as a guitarist but it may suffice for the punter.  Obviously the better the PA the better the sound your going to get out of it.  Think of it like your AFX cost £2k+ - so unless the PA main amps/speakers (or active speakers - and not including a desk or subs) is at similar price point then its not going to reproduce the AFX to its best.

I came to the conclusion many moons ago - If I was playing in a club/function band with a nice quality PA (H&K or similar) OR if I was going to be playing in decent venues with a fully mic'd up band - then Id stick to Amp/Cab and treat like a traditional amp as far as backline and/or micing up was concerned.  To me, FRFR into a PA only makes sense at a decent sized venue into a decent PA.

AndyJP

Cheers @paulmapp8306

Thanks for the tips. I know these questions have been asked a million times before but it's difficult weeding through.  Especially on the fractal board with all the fan boys.

I play blues stuff btw.   Using tweed and dumbles models  at the mo.   Have done the low/high cut thing in the cab block.

It's a different PA every time as we don't always get the same rehearsal room.  Or sometime we go to a different place altogether.   And yep the PA isn't great from what I can tell.

I'm confused with your conclusion tho.  Are you saying if the PA is crap you use axefx and  poweramp/cab ?

paulmapp8306

I always use AFX/Power amp/Cab unless Im playing a function with a quality band PA (I used to do this a couple of years ago) - OR if Im playing at venues with a decent PA and soundman (played a few local festival type gigs, and some multi band showcase type stuff).

I find trying to get patches to sound good on crap PAs, or with constantly changing PAs more trouble than its worth.  You have to spend so much time tweeking when you have paid for rehearsing - or being frustrated with poor tone.

FRFR has its place - very much so - but IMO its for recording, and in places offering PA setups Ive outlined.     

The only other FRFR option, is a quality personal monitor such as the Matrix stuff or CLR. Either use that as backline (in smaller venues that works) OR use the monitor you YOU (so you feel good about playing) and dont worry about what the audience are getting.  A soundman or desk tweek will get you  close enough 99% of punters wont care.

AndyJP

@paulmapp8306 ok that makes a lot of sense.

So what are you using power amp/cab wise?

What are you thoughts on using a speaker like QSC12 for backline?

I've posted something recently on here with a guy using one that had a reasonable live tone.

Guessing it comes down to the amp in the room feel?

paulmapp8306

Current Power Amp is a Matrix GT1000.  I used a GT800 before that for a year, and was involved a little in the development of the project.  Prior to that I had a VHT 2:50:2 which sounded awesome.  Certainly a little better than the Matrix stuff - but weight and size were issues.  The Matrix was close enough for me given back/knee issues.  That was back with a AFX Standard though, and the more improvements Cliff makes to the AFX - the less important a valve power amp will be.  I kind of want to try a valve PA again - just to see where were at, but I havent felt I absolutely have to. Before the VHT, I ran an ART SLA-1 in bridged mode.  It was OK but ultimately flat sounding compared to either the Matrix or VHT.

Cab wise, I use a Zilla studio 2x12, which is ported.  Its got removable back panels so I can run either closed, 3/4 back or open (I generally run 3/4).  The more "closed" the cab the more pronounced the port.  So in closed back mode its much more like a 4 x12, in open back its like a standard 2x12 open cab.  In 3/4 back its kind of like an oversized 2x12.  Speakers are 1 x V30 and 

1 x G12H-70 Creamback.  

The QSC are good.  Before purpose built solutions from Atomic, Matrix and now Friedman - they were one of the most popular choices.  In fact before the RCF NX12 and 10s they were the choice.   The K12 are a little compressed sounding for my liking, but a lot of cabs in that price range are (inc IMO the Matrix powered wedges - which sound quite similar to my ears).  The RCF took over from the QSC and are definitely a better sounding solution, but there nearly twice the price.  

That Matrix Q12 is worth looking at.  It sounds better than the wedge to me, but its another £200 or so more than the K12.

Ultimately, you have to try them and see if you can live with them or not. 

Roland

Paul and I have different approaches. Most of my band's gigs are pubs, and we like to keep the volume down to a level where the bar staff can understand what customers are ordering, and customers can have a conversation if they want to. Consequently I go through our PA, rather than rely on a guitar amp which needs micing up.  Our PA uses Mackie SRM450s plus a sub, driven through Output 1.  In addition I use a Matrix Q12, driven from Output 2, to provide acoustic coupling back to the guitar.  Global EQ adjusts the Mackies and the Q12 so that they sound similar.

I'm very happy with the sound of the Q12

AndyJP

Roland what do you mean by acoustic coupling back to the guitar? You talking monitor?

Roland

Yes, it's a monitor. We use IEMs. The Q12, which I can hear despite the ear plugs, gives me more guitar in my mix. It more tag simple monitoring. It provides volume back to the guitar, which resonates sympathetically, and can be driven to feedback if I want.

AndyJP

Bloody ell ! Hardcore setup.

paulmapp8306

Rowlands setup works, because he's using the same half decent pa, while also using a monitor. The pa he uses is probably the lowest spec that works with the afx to a decent standard, do it works for him.

paulmapp8306

You definately need on stage volume of some sort. Or you won't get controlled feedback, bloom or nice sustain. That all replies on a sonic coupling/loop between guitar wood and amplified signal

AndyJP

Thanks for all the information, it's all making sense.   Especially the shite pa comments.  I totally get I won't get a consistent sound through these and it's a pointless battle.

Some some sort of stage volume seems to be what I need.  Better get reading up.  Trying the gear is the difficult thing up here.  Guitarguitar glasgow have a range of pa speakers I think.  But how I'll try a matrix christ knows.  Need to look for a local seller I guess.

What styles are you guys playing?

paulmapp8306

Matrix is direct in the UK.  Give them a ring/EMail - they will usually let you return their stuff after a few days if its not working for you.

Personally, my style is primarily blues/Prog based.  I do play some Classic Rock, 80s Rock/Metal and higher gain instrumental stuff though.

Roland

AndyJP said:

What styles are you guys playing?

Pop Covers.  I have five basic amp sounds, ranging from clean to overdriven Dumble, plus an acoustic simulation.  There's nothing heavy, and certainly no metal.  There are some sample videos and audio on Facebook, and on our website  http://www.urbanlegendsband.co.uk

Handsome_Chris

Heavy Metal and Rock