Josh Smith

Blueingreen

I think Jagger is one of the greats as singer.  His performances on Blue and Lonesome show he's still a great blues singer or at least  he was in 2016.  All very subjective, but I'd wager his standing as a singer among other musicians is high.  No way he should be compared to the likes of Mayall, an early hero of mine, but even I can't pretend he's much more than adequate as a singer.

Lewy

Samgb said:

Lewy said:

Samgb said:

Lewy said:

Strat54 said:

Do you think that guys like Josh Smith, Kirk Fletcher or even our own Matt Schofield ever think about taking vocal lessons? I'm sure they'd all benefit from it. This is where our own Davy Knowles excels.....great singer as well as a player and songwriter.

I imagine they all do take vocal lessons, or at least have all seen vocal coaches and that's why they sing as well as they do. Bottom line is the elder statesmen of white blues have generally been poor singers....Alexis Korner, Mick Jagger, John Mayall...none of them could carry a tune in a bucket, a tradition carried on by the likes of Robben Ford who, to his credit, does actually hit notes. Just with a timbre akin to a teenage girl caught singing to herself in the mirror. So it's just an accepted trope of white people playing blues that shit singing isn't to be considered a barrier to entry. It's kind of insulting when you think about it …"they don't sound like one of those black blues singers but they sound rough as fuck, that's the next best thing...."

 A far cry from what you'd need to deliver to keep from being booed off stage at the Apollo!

We're lucky to have some exceptions to the rule though. Davy Knowles as you say. Hugh Coltman another great vocalist (although not a player but still in the blues-ish genre). Joey Landreth has a great voice. And they all sing like themselves. None of this lawdymamapriddybeeeebah vocal blackface nonsense.

You kind of undermine your whole point by putting one of the all-time great frontmen and most unique vocal stylists in there. Not to mention his songwriting. I'm pretty sure Jagger is exactly the type of singer who would have got on famously at the Apollo.
 

You kind of undermine yours because you've said "great frontman" and "unique vocal stylist"...it's like you're avoiding saying "great blues singer" because you yourself know that just can't be said with a straight face.

We could ask Joey Landreth if he thinks Mick Jagger can sing and check though? Pretty confident he'll be in my camp there.

I don't think Mick will lose any sleep over it. 

But what is your camp? Because you’ve said you think he’s a great frontman, and a unique vocal stylist (which you could also say of Crazy Frog). You haven’t stated that you consider him to be a great blues singer, to be held in the same company as Muddy Waters, Etta James, BB King, Bobby Bland, Sister Rosetta Tharpe etc etc. Are you saying that? Because if you’re saying anything that stops short of that, you’re making my point for me - that when white men do blues, they historically seem to have been able to get by with vocals that would have had the originators of the style never cutting a record in the first place.

StuartMac290

Jagger is a great singer. The idea he "can't carry a tune in a bucket" is just farcically wrong.

TINMAN82

Lewy said:

Samgb said:

Lewy said:

Samgb said:

Lewy said:

Strat54 said:

Do you think that guys like Josh Smith, Kirk Fletcher or even our own Matt Schofield ever think about taking vocal lessons? I'm sure they'd all benefit from it. This is where our own Davy Knowles excels.....great singer as well as a player and songwriter.

I imagine they all do take vocal lessons, or at least have all seen vocal coaches and that's why they sing as well as they do. Bottom line is the elder statesmen of white blues have generally been poor singers....Alexis Korner, Mick Jagger, John Mayall...none of them could carry a tune in a bucket, a tradition carried on by the likes of Robben Ford who, to his credit, does actually hit notes. Just with a timbre akin to a teenage girl caught singing to herself in the mirror. So it's just an accepted trope of white people playing blues that shit singing isn't to be considered a barrier to entry. It's kind of insulting when you think about it …"they don't sound like one of those black blues singers but they sound rough as fuck, that's the next best thing...."

 A far cry from what you'd need to deliver to keep from being booed off stage at the Apollo!

We're lucky to have some exceptions to the rule though. Davy Knowles as you say. Hugh Coltman another great vocalist (although not a player but still in the blues-ish genre). Joey Landreth has a great voice. And they all sing like themselves. None of this lawdymamapriddybeeeebah vocal blackface nonsense.

You kind of undermine your whole point by putting one of the all-time great frontmen and most unique vocal stylists in there. Not to mention his songwriting. I'm pretty sure Jagger is exactly the type of singer who would have got on famously at the Apollo.
 

You kind of undermine yours because you've said "great frontman" and "unique vocal stylist"...it's like you're avoiding saying "great blues singer" because you yourself know that just can't be said with a straight face.

We could ask Joey Landreth if he thinks Mick Jagger can sing and check though? Pretty confident he'll be in my camp there.

I don't think Mick will lose any sleep over it. 

But what is your camp? Because you’ve said you think he’s a great frontman, and a unique vocal stylist (which you could also say of Crazy Frog). You haven’t stated that you consider him to be a great blues singer, to be held in the same company as Muddy Waters, Etta James, BB King, Bobby Bland, Sister Rosetta Tharpe etc etc. Are you saying that? Because if you’re saying anything that stops short of that, you’re making my point for me - that when white men do blues, they historically seem to have been able to get by with vocals that would have had the originators of the style never cutting a record in the first place.

Bit of a mute line of arguments here. BB, Freddie and Albert were uniquely great “singers”, in a more classical sense. In his prime Dylan was a great vocalist within his form, with unique delivery and timing. He was never going to challenge Pavarotti as a singer, but his voice was art in itself on those 60s/70s classic albums. Muddy Waters is more in that camp too. Mick Jagger is a world class vocalist. Michael Ball is a great “singer”. I know whose gig I’m paying to see.

soma1975

Eric Burdon
Steve Winwood
Robert Plant
Peter green
Ray Davies
Rod Stewart
Van Morrison
Steve Marriot
Paul Rodgers

Honkies that can sing a decent blues. 

TINMAN82

soma1975 said:

Eric Burdon
Steve Winwood
Robert Plant
Peter green
Ray Davies
Rod Stewart
Van Morrison
Steve Marriot
Paul Rodgers

Honkies that can sing a decent blues. 

Case closed indeed. White men can sing the blues rather well!

clarkefan

soma1975 said:

Eric Burdon
Steve Winwood
Robert Plant
Peter green
Ray Davies
Rod Stewart
Van Morrison
Steve Marriot
Paul Rodgers

Honkies that can sing a decent blues. 

You omitted Gregg Allman, who in my opinion utterly nailed blues, regardless of colour.

Lewy

Just to be clear, I’m not saying white men can’t sing the blues. You can add Jimmie Vaughan, Jack Bruce, Roy Buchanan and countless others to the lists above.

I’m saying white men who can’t still seem to have made a living doing it

soma1975

clarkefan said:

soma1975 said:

Eric Burdon
Steve Winwood
Robert Plant
Peter green
Ray Davies
Rod Stewart
Van Morrison
Steve Marriot
Paul Rodgers

Honkies that can sing a decent blues. 

You omitted Gregg Allman, who in my opinion utterly nailed blues, regardless of colour.

I was doing Brits only. I thought that was part of the thing. 

soma1975

Lewy said:

Just to be clear, I’m not saying white men can’t sing the blues. You can add Jimmie Vaughan, Jack Bruce, Roy Buchanan and countless others to the lists above.

I’m saying white men who can’t still seem to have made a living doing it

 We also have a Prime Minister incapable of Prime Ministering earning a living from it. 

Jez6345789

Hi have to agree Smith is a great player but like so many of the current crop they are good players but they simply lack the songs. Clapton and loads of the older guys understood taking a Willie Dixon song and making it your own will take you a lot further in terms of success than all the chops in the world even Gary Moore realised his success more than anything came from stuff like Parisienne Walkways and Still Got The Blues, Empty Rooms etc. 

I also think the reality is that if you can't write then there are loads that can and some amazing songs out there. Yeah, money comes from songwriting but good management usually gets you a split deal if you make a success of it or find a good co-writer to work with.

Lots of good footage on this You Tube channel  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjvulwRgSjEB4Tb69EwG8xg

TINMAN82

Not to make too much of the racial divide here but I guess the most successful current/contemporary black blues singer could be Gary Clark Jr. His voice is fine but not exceptional in a 3 Kings way.

It does seem that, at least as is visible on worldwide media, YouTube etc, modern blues is dominated by white, male guitar slingers who are fleet of finger but bland of voice (ala Smith). John Mayer, in his blues format, is an exception with both vocal and guitar chops.  I wonder if the great young black singers are drawn more to pop and R&B these days.

soma1975

Vintage Trouble have it all going on. And one of the greatest singers currently working. 

Jez6345789

I am sure if you are growing up in black areas in the US  these days breaking out grandad's old blues records and bringing it up to date is pretty low down as the way to express yourself when making a few beats on your phone is what all your mates are doing.  

Travelling around the southern states I have seen good black blues guitarist on a local level but in most bars the bands are white.

Rather than the band of the week Polyphia I would love to see some young black guys melding blues roots with more urban stuff. I am reminded of the New Orleans super jam band a few years back 9 piece horns kids doing all the modern stuff on ipad and rapping free style which was impressive it started out as Superstition and went light years from there. 

EricTheWeary

YouTube thought I needed this. There's a voice, there's call and response, there's dynamics, there's a cardigan, it's not a wank fest... I wonder if some of the younger generation of blues players ( although I think Josh probably wouldn't describe himself as such) have listened to this stuff. 
Ah well, better get on with stuff. 

soma1975

Otis Rush is a legend and I doubt any professional blues player doesn't know him. That bit of tremolo picking around 2.55 is so sexy. 

jpfamps

soma1975 said:

Eric Burdon
Steve Winwood
Robert Plant
Peter green
Ray Davies
Rod Stewart
Van Morrison
Steve Marriot
Paul Rodgers

Honkies that can sing a decent blues. 

Kim Wilson
Darrell Nulisch
Nick Curran
Curtis Salgado
Paul Butterfield
James Hunter (in my opinion the best UK blues/soul singer of all time)
Doyle Brahmall (the father not the son)
Sugar Ray Norcia
Phil Pemberton
Lynwood Slim
James Harman

jpfamps

And by the way there are 4 Kings: BB, Freddie, Albert and Earl.

soma1975

And King Tut obviously. 

jpfamps

soma1975 said:

And King Tut obviously. 

The originator of the jazz beard.