Universal Audio OX

John_A

My point is the reactive load side of the two notes captor sounds fantastic, the attenuated out sounds a bit rubbish.  Plenty of people with old amps without effects loops too.

On something like the Torpedo reload it wouldn't be difficult to add a loop between the load and the powerstage

mattdavis

WiresDreamDisasters said:

John_A said:

Thing is two notes don’t currently have any hardware that would support this.  The captor and captor x have a very limited resistive attenuator that’s not part of the reactive load circuit as far as I can tell, and the reload would need an effects loop adding to the powered out, quite an omission and an easy fix but would require a new model.  Other that the powerstation The only option is running another power amp post effects

For acting as an impedance load you of course want a reactive load, which the Two Notes products have. I am not convinced that a reactive attenuator would give any benefits over a resistive attenuator. An attenuator should turn things down, nothing more.

To be clear - when you connect an amp up to the Captor, it uses the reactive load. When you connect the speaker thru, then the load comes from the speaker. So the interaction between amp+speaker is still reactive. But there is a gain stage introduced in between that is passive and resistive. In this situation it's not a problem to do that because the direct connection between amp and speaker provides all the reactive elements you need.

As to having effects - just whack a pedal in the loop of your amp and call it a day guys. It's a bit more of a setup, but not too much, and being able to have control over which delays and reverbs you get access to is a boon in itself.

@WiresDreamDisasters My old Jcm 800 doesn’t have a loop and I’d love to have some 80s/90s reverb after the amp-derived gain. What would your recommended best solution be? Boss TAE, the Fryette or getting a clever tech to add an effects loop (which makes me feel nauseous as it’s stock since it’s birth in ‘84). 
Cheers

John_A

@mattdavis what are you listening through, your cab or monitors?  

mattdavis

John_A said:

@mattdavis what are you listening through, your cab or monitors?  

@John_A ;;Through the cab ( it’s a 2x12 combo) - cheers

-Ed-

I have not used the Ox because i do not like the potential stepped change in tone when using it as an attenuator. This is why I’ve not bothered with one as it’s primary use for me is attenuation. 

The TAE, Reload and PS2 do not suffer from this - I’ve owned and extensively played all three. 

Top of the pile for me is the TAE, neutral as it gets attenuation and I can tweak the feel. The Reload was good as was the PS 2. What put me off the PS2 in the end was fan noise. The TAE is great in a home setting As the fan noise is the lowest of all the attenuators I’ve tried.  

The iron man is worth a look too based on what I see online. 

A one box solution isn’t the ideal solution. There will always be a compromise. I do not need the effects in the TAE as I use an axefx in 4cm. 

This thread has made me think about ordering an ox to try

WiresDreamDisasters

mattdavis said:

WiresDreamDisasters said:

John_A said:

Thing is two notes don’t currently have any hardware that would support this.  The captor and captor x have a very limited resistive attenuator that’s not part of the reactive load circuit as far as I can tell, and the reload would need an effects loop adding to the powered out, quite an omission and an easy fix but would require a new model.  Other that the powerstation The only option is running another power amp post effects

For acting as an impedance load you of course want a reactive load, which the Two Notes products have. I am not convinced that a reactive attenuator would give any benefits over a resistive attenuator. An attenuator should turn things down, nothing more.

To be clear - when you connect an amp up to the Captor, it uses the reactive load. When you connect the speaker thru, then the load comes from the speaker. So the interaction between amp+speaker is still reactive. But there is a gain stage introduced in between that is passive and resistive. In this situation it's not a problem to do that because the direct connection between amp and speaker provides all the reactive elements you need.

As to having effects - just whack a pedal in the loop of your amp and call it a day guys. It's a bit more of a setup, but not too much, and being able to have control over which delays and reverbs you get access to is a boon in itself.

@WiresDreamDisasters My old Jcm 800 doesn’t have a loop and I’d love to have some 80s/90s reverb after the amp-derived gain. What would your recommended best solution be? Boss TAE, the Fryette or getting a clever tech to add an effects loop (which makes me feel nauseous as it’s stock since it’s birth in ‘84). 
Cheers

Ahhh. Good question. I think John is right in that very few bits of kit allow you to do this, but the Fryette Power Station is one of them. Now as I recall (John can correct me if this isn't the case) the way it works is the Fryette essentially adds a power amp to your amps existing poweramp, and this is how it's able to insert an effects loop into the chain.

But then you've got two poweramps going into one another, and I don't know how good that would sound. Fryette designs good gear, so I'm sure it can't sound shit. But will it sound true to the JCM800 power section? I don't know.

You could also get a Suhr ISO Line Out box. This sits between your JCM800 and cab. It derives a line level signal from your amplifier allowing you to then route that signal through effects. But then you'd need an additional poweramp and cab to amplify it on stage - or you could run it through a multi-fx like a HX Effects that simulates a cabinet and run it to FOH, and have them spit it back to your stage monitoring.

There are probably a number of other ways you could do this. I wouldn't mod the amp personally. If it were me, I'd be trying out a bunch of delays and reverbs in front of the amp. Dialed in correctly, you can get some wonderful sounds that you simply cannot get with post-distortion effects. Don't be scared to have a Boss RV5 in front of your amp with the mix dialed in extremely low. At high-gain settings it will pop out nicely.

WiresDreamDisasters

John_A said:

My point is the reactive load side of the two notes captor sounds fantastic, the attenuated out sounds a bit rubbish.  Plenty of people with old amps without effects loops too.

On something like the Torpedo reload it wouldn't be difficult to add a loop between the load and the powerstage

I get you think it sounds crap. My point was is that technically, there is no need for an attenuator to be reactive. It's just a gain stage. The reactance comes from being connected to a speaker.

The Torpedo Reload is a great bit of kit but there are some niggles with it. As I recall it works as a loadbox, attenuator, and DI. But it can't do all three at once. If I remember rightly, if you connect a signal to the line input on the back, then the front instrument input stops being routed to the amp out. So you need to cock about with cable pulling all the time. Not a huge problem I suppose, but I like the idea of having that sort of kit perma setup and then I can just control the signals from my DAW or instrument.

And yes, having an insert point between the speaker in and speaker out would've been great.

WiresDreamDisasters

-Ed- said:

I have not used the Ox because i do not like the potential stepped change in tone when using it as an attenuator. This is why I’ve not bothered with one as it’s primary use for me is attenuation. 

The TAE, Reload and PS2 do not suffer from this - I’ve owned and extensively played all three. 

Top of the pile for me is the TAE, neutral as it gets attenuation and I can tweak the feel. The Reload was good as was the PS 2. What put me off the PS2 in the end was fan noise. The TAE is great in a home setting As the fan noise is the lowest of all the attenuators I’ve tried.  

The iron man is worth a look too based on what I see online. 

A one box solution isn’t the ideal solution. There will always be a compromise. I do not need the effects in the TAE as I use an axefx in 4cm. 

This thread has made me think about ordering an ox to try

I'm considering a Captor X myself. Attenuation isn't something I'm too bothered about. But I would like to be able to get a signal I can put into headphones/IEMs, and the Captor X seems the simplest way of doing it to me.

I have a loadbox a mate made for me which I use into my Apollo interface from time to time. But generally I do try to stick with cab+mic if I can.

Saying that, I spent all last night playing my Helix so horses for glue factories!

John_A

@mattdavis ;

Most cost effective option is a loop in the JCM, I'm currently adding one to mine, but in an external box so there's going to be no modification required to the chassis/faceplates, obviously that doesn't get you attenuation

If you want attenuation then a powerstation gives you the loop as well

I'm running a two notes captor through the helix and in to a small power amp then back to my cab speakers, that works great too, but for gigging it would be a pain to set it all up

tekbow

WiresDreamDisasters said:

I get you think it sounds crap. My point was is that technically, there is no need for an attenuator to be reactive. It's just a gain stage. The reactance comes from being connected to a speaker.

The Torpedo Reload is a great bit of kit but there are some niggles with it. As I recall it works as a loadbox, attenuator, and DI. But it can't do all three at once. If I remember rightly, if you connect a signal to the line input on the back, then the front instrument input stops being routed to the amp out. So you need to cock about with cable pulling all the time. Not a huge problem I suppose, but I like the idea of having that sort of kit perma setup and then I can just control the signals from my DAW or instrument.

And yes, having an insert point between the speaker in and speaker out would've been great.

The idea of a "reactive attenuator" is best implemented in conjunction with a power amp, either built in, or external.

The power amp sounds fine as it's a wideband hifi type. The point is to not colour the sound coming from the amp.

Depends what you mean by DI. If you mean a clean direct signal from the guitar then kind of yes, kind of no.

I have mine setup so that I can plug in the front of the Reload, record a dry guitar part while monitoring that from my speaker cab via the "attenuator" AND be sending a post amp DI back to the DAW. The only part that isnt ideal is the latency of the post amp DI coming through my studio monitors after passing IR's etc.

I've also got mine setup so that all I have to do is switch cables to my guitar and pedal board, not the Reload.

In fact I spoke to Bright Onion about a switcher that would allow me to switch between going into my amp directly, or the Hi-Z input on the Reload.

So the line input on the back doesnt disable anything of the other ins and outs.

mattdavis

John_A said:

@mattdavis ;

Most cost effective option is a loop in the JCM, I'm currently adding one to mine, but in an external box so there's going to be no modification required to the chassis/faceplates, obviously that doesn't get you attenuation

If you want attenuation then a powerstation gives you the loop as well

I'm running a two notes captor through the helix and in to a small power amp then back to my cab speakers, that works great too, but for gigging it would be a pain to set it all up

@John_A cheers. That fx loop sounds interesting. Who’s doing that for you? (Feel free to PM if you prefer). 

WiresDreamDisasters

tekbow said:

The idea of a "reactive attenuator" is best implemented in conjunction with a power amp, either built in, or external.

The power amp sounds fine as it's a wideband hifi type. The point is to not colour the sound coming from the amp.

Depends what you mean by DI. If you mean a clean direct signal from the guitar then kind of yes, kind of no.

I have mine setup so that I can plug in the front of the Reload, record a dry guitar part while monitoring that from my speaker cab via the "attenuator" AND be sending a post amp DI back to the DAW. The only part that isnt ideal is the latency of the post amp DI coming through my studio monitors after passing IR's etc.

I've also got mine setup so that all I have to do is switch cables to my guitar and pedal board, not the Reload.

In fact I spoke to Bright Onion about a switcher that would allow me to switch between going into my amp directly, or the Hi-Z input on the Reload.

So the line input on the back doesnt disable anything of the other ins and outs.

Right I had to go back and check the support ticket I filed with them:

Hi,

After looking around online it looks like the Reload cannot send a DI to a computer whilst at the same time sending it to the Amp Output? Am I understanding this correctly?

Basically what I want to do is this:

- Record a DI signal of my guitar to my computer
- Monitor my guitar through my amplifier and cab AT THE SAME TIME as recording the DI

How would I do this without routing the DI back from my computer to the Replay input?

Thanks,
Drew

Their response was:

Hello,

It can, but this has to go through the sound interface. As you said, it just involves routing the DI track back from your computer to the Replay input.

Setting this up allows to set all the levels and finally use the Match function, so you are sure your amp gets the right level for reamplification.

If you don't want to or can't do that, you'll need a simple splitter. This could be a passive Y cable or box, put between the guitar and DI. The other branch of the Y would feed the amp.

Cordialement/Sincerely,

Bruno Ferren
R&D Manager | Two Notes Audio Engineering

I knew there was something funky with how it worked, just couldn't exactly remember the details which is why I said as I recall.

But yes. You cannot track the guitar DI at the same time as sending it to the amplifier, without routing back from the audio interface, which I didn't want to do because it's an extra stage of conversion and noise-floor and possibly latency.

Basically I wanted to go:

Guitar -> Instrument Input
Rear DI output -> Audio Interface
Rear Amp Out -> Amplifier

But in order for it to properly work you also have to do:
Audio Interface -> Rear Replay Line Input

As Bruno says, you can solve this by splitting beforehand using a DI.

As I say, it's a great product, I just remember that bit annoying me.

WiresDreamDisasters

@tekbow ;
As for poweramp colouration - I'm not confident that a 50watt 6L6 based poweramp is going to be clean enough for me. But I've never tried the Powerstation so don't know 100%. But if I've got a 100watt KT77 amp, I don't really want to route that through a 50watt 6L6 one, which is why I've never really considered that product.

tekbow

@WiresDreamDisasters ;

To clarify my last comment, my Reload is hooked up as per the diagram in the manual, excepting the guitar into the front of the Unit. Ignore that for now.

Ok so, all the ins and outs have stuff in em.

In the next pic, note the blue tagged cable in the Reload and the cable into the input of my amp.

The cable into the amp comes from the output of the pedal board, that's permanent.

Note the blue and red tagged cables in the next pic.

So the blue tagged cable is the one going into the front of the Reload. The red cable is the return from the replay out (which returns a dry signal from the DAW).

So, if I want to just play direct to the amp and record or monitor via DAW and Monitors, I go guitar > pedal board.

If I want to record a dry track to re-amp, whilst simultaneously monitoring from my cab, I plug the blue cable into my guitar and the red cable into the front of the pedal board.

But I want to make it simpler. I came up with the following idea and sent it to Bright onion who says they can implement it. Basically all the cables, red, blue, cable from guitar and a cable to the front of the pedal board will plug into the this.

Then I select between direct to amp, or direct to Reload.

John_A

mattdavis said:

John_A said:

@mattdavis ;;

Most cost effective option is a loop in the JCM, I'm currently adding one to mine, but in an external box so there's going to be no modification required to the chassis/faceplates, obviously that doesn't get you attenuation

If you want attenuation then a powerstation gives you the loop as well

I'm running a two notes captor through the helix and in to a small power amp then back to my cab speakers, that works great too, but for gigging it would be a pain to set it all up

@John_A cheers. That fx loop sounds interesting. Who’s doing that for you? (Feel free to PM if you prefer). 

Doing it myself, I'm happy working with amps, have built a few.  Got one of these and a box to put it in

https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/kit-seriel-fx-loop-lnd150.html

Bear in mind it's a 'kit' comes as a board and a heap of components.  Any of the amp techs on here, modulus, MJW, ICBM should be able to fit one, or any competent tech.  The mojo loop is a bit more money, but highly regarded

Which solution is best for you really depends on what you're planning to do with it.  For live use it's all a bit of a faff IMO, for home/recording it's amazing!

tekbow

WiresDreamDisasters said:

@tekbow ;
As for poweramp colouration - I'm not confident that a 50watt 6L6 based poweramp is going to be clean enough for me. But I've never tried the Powerstation so don't know 100%. But if I've got a 100watt KT77 amp, I don't really want to route that through a 50watt 6L6 one, which is why I've never really considered that product.

With specific regards to the PS2, I completely agree. I've also never seen clear info on tube replacement and biasing

WiresDreamDisasters

@tekbow ;
Looks like a very flexible setup!

I'm looking at something similar. Just don't know which unit to get yet.

tekbow

WiresDreamDisasters said:

tekbow said:

The idea of a "reactive attenuator" is best implemented in conjunction with a power amp, either built in, or external.

The power amp sounds fine as it's a wideband hifi type. The point is to not colour the sound coming from the amp.

Depends what you mean by DI. If you mean a clean direct signal from the guitar then kind of yes, kind of no.

I have mine setup so that I can plug in the front of the Reload, record a dry guitar part while monitoring that from my speaker cab via the "attenuator" AND be sending a post amp DI back to the DAW. The only part that isnt ideal is the latency of the post amp DI coming through my studio monitors after passing IR's etc.

I've also got mine setup so that all I have to do is switch cables to my guitar and pedal board, not the Reload.

In fact I spoke to Bright Onion about a switcher that would allow me to switch between going into my amp directly, or the Hi-Z input on the Reload.

So the line input on the back doesnt disable anything of the other ins and outs.

Right I had to go back and check the support ticket I filed with them:

Hi,

After looking around online it looks like the Reload cannot send a DI to a computer whilst at the same time sending it to the Amp Output? Am I understanding this correctly?

Basically what I want to do is this:

- Record a DI signal of my guitar to my computer
- Monitor my guitar through my amplifier and cab AT THE SAME TIME as recording the DI

How would I do this without routing the DI back from my computer to the Replay input?

Thanks,
Drew

Their response was:

Hello,

It can, but this has to go through the sound interface. As you said, it just involves routing the DI track back from your computer to the Replay input.

Setting this up allows to set all the levels and finally use the Match function, so you are sure your amp gets the right level for reamplification.

If you don't want to or can't do that, you'll need a simple splitter. This could be a passive Y cable or box, put between the guitar and DI. The other branch of the Y would feed the amp.

Cordialement/Sincerely,

Bruno Ferren
R&D Manager | Two Notes Audio Engineering

I knew there was something funky with how it worked, just couldn't exactly remember the details which is why I said as I recall.

But yes. You cannot track the guitar DI at the same time as sending it to the amplifier, without routing back from the audio interface, which I didn't want to do because it's an extra stage of conversion and noise-floor and possibly latency.

Basically I wanted to go:

Guitar -> Instrument Input
Rear DI output -> Audio Interface
Rear Amp Out -> Amplifier

But in order for it to properly work you also have to do:
Audio Interface -> Rear Replay Line Input

As Bruno says, you can solve this by splitting beforehand using a DI.

As I say, it's a great product, I just remember that bit annoying me.

Sorry, I completely missed this.

Ok so, yes, you have to route it back from the DAW/interface.

But you're not putting it through any extra levels of conversion as such. Not that the dry D.I. track wouldn't see anyway if getting re-amped.

Additionally, it's the fact that you have to route it back thru the DAW/interface that makes the replay function so exact, because this is what allows the unit to compare the signal level at the hi-z instrument input, with what is being sent to the front of the amp from the "amp out" jack. The so-called Match function.

This is presuming you're recording a D.I. track for re-amping? Because that's the point of the Hi-Z input on the front of the Reload.

If it makes any difference, apart from a nasty ground loop that occured because of my crappy apartment wiring which I rectified with an isolation transformer (plugged into the red cable in one of the pics), theres no real noise or colouration that bothered me.

WiresDreamDisasters

tekbow said:

Sorry, I completely missed this.

Ok so, yes, you have to route it back from the DAW/interface.

But you're not putting it through any extra levels of conversion as such. Not that the dry D.I. track wouldn't see anyway if getting re-amped.

This is presuming you're recording a D.I. track for re-amping? Because that's the point of the Hi-Z input on the front of the Reload.

If it makes any difference, apart from a nasty ground loop that occured because of my crappy apartment wiring which I rectified with an isolation transformer (plugged into the red cable in one of the pics), theres no real noise or colouration that bothered me.

If you send a signal into your audio interface and then back out again, you're going through a stage of A/D and a stage of D/A. You're right in the sense that this isn't any different to tracking a DI for reamping later. But I do try to keep conversion stages as minimal as possible (he says whilst having a board full of digital effects, hahahaha!)

I think what bothered me more was that I'm tracking the DI for editing purposes a lot of the time, and I'm keeping the original mic'd amp recordings. So no re-amping required. In that case, I am aiming to cut out that particular extra stage of AD/DA. Which as I say, can be done by putting a DI box after the guitar which feeds the Reload and the audio interface seperately.

BTW the line-input on the back is what you should use for reamping, not the front Hi-Z input. The front Hi-Z input is for the original guitar only, and you strum your guitar whilst sending your DI back through the replay line input, and the lights on the front tell you if the signal level matches.

That bit of it works splendidly I have to say! 

mattdavis

John_A said:

mattdavis said:

John_A said:

@mattdavis ;;

Most cost effective option is a loop in the JCM, I'm currently adding one to mine, but in an external box so there's going to be no modification required to the chassis/faceplates, obviously that doesn't get you attenuation

If you want attenuation then a powerstation gives you the loop as well

I'm running a two notes captor through the helix and in to a small power amp then back to my cab speakers, that works great too, but for gigging it would be a pain to set it all up

@John_A cheers. That fx loop sounds interesting. Who’s doing that for you? (Feel free to PM if you prefer). 

Doing it myself, I'm happy working with amps, have built a few.  Got one of these and a box to put it in

https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/kit-seriel-fx-loop-lnd150.html

Bear in mind it's a 'kit' comes as a board and a heap of components.  Any of the amp techs on here, modulus, MJW, ICBM should be able to fit one, or any competent tech.  The mojo loop is a bit more money, but highly regarded

Which solution is best for you really depends on what you're planning to do with it.  For live use it's all a bit of a faff IMO, for home/recording it's amazing!

Cheers!