Why do guitarists in jazz trios play with a muddy tone?

mellowsun

Went for lunch at a cafe where a jazz trio were playing. They were great: bass, baritone sax and guitar, the sax player in particular was fantastic.

The frustrating thing for me was the guitarist's tone. Why do all jazzers - that play standards at least - do so with that horrible, midrange, treble-free tone? With no keyboard, it would have been a great opportunity for a more piano-like tone with punchy bass and clear trebles, but it was not to be.

Boring jazz guitar tone is up there with folk vocalists' nasal whine for pet annoyances for me. Isn't it time for someone to reinvent jazz guitar tone?

Elx

Because apparently that's proper jazz tone. Also, no vibrato and no string bending are allowed. Nerds...I've started studying it, just to see what all the fuss is about...Also, whatever you hit between hitting the target chord tones is OK. At least that's what Mike Stern says. Well if that is the case, I'm a great jazz guitarist already!

mellowsun

To be fair, he did a bit of string bending (maybe the odd semitone bend or two) and used vibrato a bit. The playing was really smooth but the solos not very melodic - quite noodly, which probably suited the setting. 

The sax player seemed to be better at improvising a cool melody, whereas the guitarist seem to be more interested in creating harmonic interest.

richardhomer

Wes Mongomery had a warm but clear tone - Martin Taylor often uses a piezo mixed with the magnetic pick-up to give him a really articulate tone....

octatonic

mellowsun said:

Went for lunch at a cafe where a jazz trio were playing. They were great: bass, baritone sax and guitar, the sax player in particular was fantastic.

The frustrating thing for me was the guitarist's tone. Why do all jazzers - that play standards at least - do so with that horrible, midrange, treble-free tone? With no keyboard, it would have been a great opportunity for a more piano-like tone with punchy bass and clear trebles, but it was not to be.

Boring jazz guitar tone is up there with folk vocalists' nasal whine for pet annoyances for me. Isn't it time for someone to reinvent jazz guitar tone?

A lot of emotive language in this post- not sure how to deal with it really other than to say *some* modern jazzers do it because that is some of the pioneers of jazz played and they are emulating their heroes.

No different to using a wah to play Voodoo Chile or over bending to play Metallica, really.

Plenty of jazzers don't do it- Mike Stern doesn't for example.

Or Tuck Andress, John Abercrombie, John Maclaughin, Alan Holdsworth, Scott Henderson or Wayne Krantz.

The sorts of guys who do are more neo-jazz than modern jazz- they are trying to recreate the music of Grant Green, Howard Roberts, Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery.

My advice is to study the melodic and harmonic invention- you may come to love the warm, clear tone.

octatonic

Elx said:

At least that's what Mike Stern says. Well if that is the case, I'm a great jazz guitarist already!

He is being a bit disingenuous when he says that I think.

Melodic contour and harmonic sensitivity counts for a lot more.

mellowsun

octatonic said:

The sorts of guys who do are more neo-jazz than modern jazz- they are trying to recreate the music of Grant Green, Howard Roberts, Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery.

Obviously I'm exaggerating to make a point, and modern players don't always use this tone. But the typical jazz standards players you hear in a Sunday cafe do. And I don't like it!

octatonic

mellowsun said:

octatonic said:

The sorts of guys who do are more neo-jazz than modern jazz- they are trying to recreate the music of Grant Green, Howard Roberts, Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery.

Obviously I'm exaggerating to make a point, and modern players don't always use this tone. But the typical jazz standards players you hear in a Sunday cafe do. And I don't like it!

Cool, I wasn't sure.

DulcetJones

I don't know if this is still a relevant point but back in the 60's a lot of these jazz guys were into using flat wound strings.  I tried a set once thinking it would be an easy way to eliminate string squeak but found that they also eliminate tone.  At least that was my experience.

Loobs

Bit of a generalisation. I'm keen to hear said guitarist. 

ArchtopDave

Personally I don't like very trebly guitar sound on any type of guitar. Since taking up playing guitar, I've found I do like jazz. If you play on an Archtop with a traditional bridge then bending strings has to be limited  - I've found on mine that semitone bends can be done safely, but with whole tone bends the strings are liable to skid across the bridge, and then you land up being out of tune in an instant.

 

ICBM

Surely that just means you need to deepen the grooves slightly? It doesn't need a lot, if the grooves are deeper than half the string diameter they can't skid.

Loobs

I don't think string bending sounds particularly 'jazzy'. 

ThePrettyDamned

Loobs;286582" said:

I don't think string bending sounds particularly 'jazzy'. 

Me neither.

I do sympathise with the op though - a lot of folk I've seen jazzing it up here have a sound that's super clean, but muffled bar midrange because they've turned the tone control right down on the guitar neck pickup. It's almost fatiguing to hear.

ESchap

I frequently had my ES-175 set-up with rosewood bridge and flat wound strings.  You could make it muddy but equally it could be smooth and nice and bright, just leave the tone controls on 10 and use the amp controls! 

With some "jazzers" muddy tone may simply be a matter of dogma ...  

impmann

Muddy tone? Its not just Jazzers that seem to think that having any treble is 'harsh' sounding... and then wonder why their sound gets buried in a mix and they then spend more and more money buying bigger and bigger amps to push that middly, dull sound up in the mix.

I'm not going to give examples but I'm sure you can fill in the blanks on that one...

Phil_aka_Pip

I think some of you lot have your HF hearing damaged by too much big stackery behind you and drummers who have been to the Animal (of the Muppets) school of drumming to the side of you. The tone isn't muffled or muddy, it's mellow and not strident; with the exception of Pat Metheney I reckon a brighter guitar sound would stick out too much from the rest of the combo.

I have found that playing electric guitar on its own or with a small number of acoustic instruments (and no drums, perhaps no bass either) I often roll back the tone pot slightly because the guitar sticks out too much for brightness), but in a full electric combo I turn it right up and probably turn the treble up on the amplifier as well.

GuyBoden

mellowsun said:

Went for lunch at a cafe where a jazz trio were playing. They were great: bass, baritone sax and guitar, the sax player in particular was fantastic.

The frustrating thing for me was the guitarist's tone. Why do all jazzers - that play standards at least - do so with that horrible, midrange, treble-free tone? With no keyboard, it would have been a great opportunity for a more piano-like tone with punchy bass and clear trebles, but it was not to be.

Boring jazz guitar tone is up there with folk vocalists' nasal whine for pet annoyances for me. Isn't it time for someone to reinvent jazz guitar tone?

Is this the tone you're talking about?

GuyBoden

This is muddy, but still great, exceptional playing.

Van_Hayden

Hmm, not sure I agree with a lot of the above. Most people think they should play jazz with a muddy tone but.....

Wes, Burrell, Farlow etc didn't have a muddy tone. Listen and you can hear the pick attack and a nice balanced tone. You can hear the chords and lower strings cleanly.

Most people think it should be dull. And they buy a Polytone. The amp single handedly responsibly for making everything sound dark (because they have a nasty harsh treble you have to turn down). Now they buy AERs which have a similar annoying treble.

The old guys were using big valve amps - Fender Twins, Deluxes, Super Reverbs. Modern jazz players insist on having the lightest tiniest amp, invariably solid state and invariably a bit crap.

Van_Hayden

Considering this is with his thumb, there's quite a bit if brightness on the attack. The video above is what you get with a dull amp tone and using your fingers.