Why do guitarists in jazz trios play with a muddy tone?

Chalky

Some, like me, just like the sound of a nice mellow guitar through a mellow amp. Don't think I'm copying anyone. Just appeals to me.

Like a muted trumpet with street reverb, or the lower register of tenor sax over upright bass and brushes, or a suitcase-style electric piano, they are all mellow jazz tones from 50 years ago that sound good to my ears. Aint no mud or lack of clarity, just no screeching treble

Sassafras

I absolutely love screeching, ear splitting treble!

Phil_aka_Pip

Sassafras said:

I absolutely love screeching, ear splitting treble!

apparently, it has to be that way before I can hear it

I used to play an LP Std thru a Plexi JTM45 with presence=8, bass=4, mid=6, treble=8 (single 4x12) ... sounded balanced enough to me but other people said it were way too trebly

Blueingreen

GuyBoden said:

Blueingreen said:

Also, many jazzers have typically been snotty about rock pop players and consciously avoid tones or techniques (eg string bending, vibrato) that make them sound more rock-like.

Maybe, it's just that some Jazz guitarists are jealous of all the money that famous Rock/Pop guitarists have made.

No doubt some are jealous, along with many of the 99.99% of Rock/Pop guitarists who didn't become rich and famous. Not many guys wouldn't swap places with Jimmy Page.  Or at least a younger Jimmy Page.

But I don't think that's the key motivation.  It's run of the mill snobbery.  

johnonguitar

One of the big reasons is that trebly guitar sounds don't sustain in the same way as softer ones do. Try playing a standard with a Tele bridge and flat clean amp and you'll hate life.

This is also the reason that the sax player usually kills a guitarist, even when the guitarist is playing more complex likes, the sax can just rip a blues scale and sound awesome

Chalky

Jealousy. Snobbery. Be honest. Do you actually know any professional musicians? If you do, do they ever express those emotions other than in jest? Thought not.

Blueingreen

I wasn't referring particularly to professional musicians, although I don't see why they would be any less likely to be jealous or snobbish than other musicians or people in general.  They are professional musicians because they are musically talented, not because they have impeccable morals.

And as a guy who's done his fair share of playing in support acts I can confirm I have met some utter creeps of professional musicians, including a few people I admired a lot before I met them personally.  And some total gents of course.

And a fair sprinkling of people I played with when I was starting out have gone on to do very well for themselves as musicians.  Again, I wouldn't say as a group they were conspicuously nicer than average people.

If you have doubts that some jazz players have a snobbish attitude to rock/pop players, spending a little time on jazzguitar forum will quickly remove them.  Of course many members are open-minded and generous to players in other styles but others are not.  

Fusionista

Jazz players are often snobbish in my experience ;-)  One I know is destitute but won't play in pubs!  

"Oo, I can play over changes"

"Still sounds like mud, mate"

johnonguitar

Fusionista;637452" said:

Jazz players are often snobbish in my experience ;-)  One I know is destitute but won't play in pubs!  

"Oo, I can play over changes"

"Still sounds like mud, mate"

True to his art

GuyBoden

Personally, I think that if we're truly honest about our playing abilities, we know that the top Jazz players are playing more complex, more technically demanding, more musically advanced music than the top Rock/Pop guitarists. I'm not saying that this makes it sounds better, but personally, it's makes it more difficult to play.........  

Sassafras

I've got no problem admitting that most jazz players can leave me standing with their technical prowess and the difficulty involved.

That's half the problem. It's so complex and hard to play that very few of them can put any sort of feeling into it.

I just get the impression most of them are saying "Hey, look at me. See how good I am. Never mind that the music's dull and lifeless, just check out how many notes I can play."

carlos

Sassafras;641649" said:

It's so complex and hard to play that very few of them can put any sort of feeling into it.I just get the impression most of them are saying "Hey, look at me. See how good I am. Never mind that the music's dull and lifeless, just check out how many notes I can play."

That's a lot of speculation...
Jazzers are no slouches in the funny face department when playing (if that's how you measure feeling)

carlos

Btw, you could build a decent hour set of standards that's not too hard to play and even just play pentatonics in all the solos if you don't want to stretch your chops too much.
The bias here is that all the well known jazz guitarists are tech and knowledge monsters, whereas the well known rock guitarists are more of a mixed bag. Imagine a world where rock guitarist meant Vai, Yngwie and Bettencourt for the average person. You wouldn't call it easy to play would you?