Why do guitarists in jazz trios play with a muddy tone?

jazzlemming

My entry into the first fretboard challenge was all recorded on an archtop guitar, without any f-holes. 60% external condenser mic, 40% neck pickup.

Doesn't sound muddy to me...

https://youtu.be/C01tLFh8N40

Jalapeno

ToneControl said:

I only tried one, but the gypsy-jazz D-shaped soundhole guitar I played sounded muddy and woolly

Odd, they're made to sound glass shatteringly bright, with a strong attack (and little sustain). 

They are supposed to be played with gusto, might've made it sound indistinct if you didn't give it some stick.

Sassafras

GuyBoden said:

Sassafras said:

Even more muddy with a very muted attack.

That's complete bollocks, here's a high quality Archtop sound, there might be too many changes in the song for this forum, but it's a good mellow sound to my experienced Jazz ears.

 It very good of you to grace this forum with all us tone deaf idiots with your "experienced jazz ears".

I'm sure we're all very grateful to you for lowering your standards and trying to educate us in the ways of soulless, directionless noodling.

You're right in one sense, I do prefer more primitive music that's got a bit more bite to it than that kind of stuff which would sound great in a lift or coming out of a supermarket's tannoy system.

Sassafras

GuyBoden said:

Fusionista said:

I like jazz; I love guitar;  but that made me want to get out of the lift and back into the lobby

Jazz has very big shoulders, musically it can be anything, but I know what you mean.

Sassafras said:

I was talking about acoustic jazz archtop not electric jazz. To me, mellow still sounds muddy with a muted attck.

Obviously you know nothing about Jazz Archtops, because very few players play an Archtop guitar acoustically live, that's why they have pickups. Please, name an Acoustic Archtop player who play one live?

I can't because I don't like that sort of stuff but I think you'll find that archtops were around long before pickups were invented.

ToneControl

GuyBoden said:

Sassafras said:

Even more muddy with a very muted attack.

That's complete bollocks, here's a high quality Archtop sound, there might be too many changes in the song for this forum, but it's a good mellow sound to my experienced Jazz ears.

I was talking about carved archtops, is this one carved?

Chalky

Yes, Django-style guitars need to be played very hard to get their full sound. Certainly much harder than most folks play their electrics. Its great when you do it right but I sold mine because it was too much like hard work and it gets loud even acoustically, so late night playing is difgicult with kids asleep.

Chalky

A jazz guitarist who plays using fingers is always going to have a muted attack as @Sassafras says, because thats what flesh on string gives you. And of course the typical flatwound 13s on an Archtop will accentuate it even more. But personally, I like that sound

mellowsun

Chalky said:

A jazz guitarist who plays using fingers is always going to have a muted attack as @Sassafras says, because thats what flesh on string gives you. And of course the typical flatwound 13s on an Archtop will accentuate it even more. But personally, I like that sound

I think the point is that if you play with fingers then you don't need to roll the treble off the way players that use a pick do. Martin Taylor plays finger style and he has a lovely, clear tone - particularly on the Artistry album. No mud at all.

Chalky

Martin Taylor has a fast attack, sure. Used to have his Yamaha signature model and it was the piezo mix that gave it the crisp start to the note. Youtube of him and Tommy Emmanuel playing the Nearness of You is a good example of him playing that particular model recently.

Fusionista

Martin Taylor - words fail me. Sat a yard in front of him (at a 'Jazz at the Fleece' concert in Boxford, Suffolk) once and it was a rare privilege.  Never seen anything so precise and perfect.

Jalapeno

ToneControl said:

GuyBoden said:

Sassafras said:

Even more muddy with a very muted attack.

That's complete bollocks, here's a high quality Archtop sound, there might be too many changes in the song for this forum, but it's a good mellow sound to my experienced Jazz ears.

I was talking about carved archtops, is this one carved?

That guy's rhythm & walking bass seems effortless, the git

Blueingreen

I've not read the whole thread but the reasons for the treble being rolled off (and the neck pickup used) by most mainstream jazz guitarists in the 50s was that it was a way to try and get closer to the body/sustain/legato sound of a horn at a time when overdriving an amp was considered "wrong" and the distorted sounds it produced unmusical by most people.  

Later this sound was normalised as the typical or approved jazz sound by jazzers who wanted to sound like their 50s heroes.  Also, many jazzers have typically been snotty about rock pop players and consciously avoid tones or techniques (eg string bending, vibrato) that make them sound more rock-like.

It's a tone that doesn't always appeal to players whose idea of good tone has been arrived at through listening mainly to rock, but that's mainly down to different listening experiences.  Rock players - whose tones are so often derived from the equipment and sounds used by 60s and 70s pioneers - don't seem to be particularly well placed to poke fun at jazzers for being too much in thrall to the heroes of old in deciding their tone.

Fusionista

@Blueingreen wis for that, mainly for being fair.  Plenty of rockers guilty of shit tone, indeed probably more proportionally than jazzers.

GuyBoden

ToneControl said:

GuyBoden said:

Sassafras said:

Even more muddy with a very muted attack.

That's complete bollocks, here's a high quality Archtop sound, there might be too many changes in the song for this forum, but it's a good mellow sound to my experienced Jazz ears.

I was talking about carved archtops, is this one carved?

Yes, Hand carved in Germany.

Read this link:
http://www.sonntag-guitars.com/english/Profile/index.html

GuyBoden

Blueingreen said:

Also, many jazzers have typically been snotty about rock pop players and consciously avoid tones or techniques (eg string bending, vibrato) that make them sound more rock-like.

Maybe, it's just that some Jazz guitarists are jealous of all the money that famous Rock/Pop guitarists have made.

bingefeller

GuyBoden said:

Fusionista said:

Tom is brilliant. I have his Wampler pedal and a couple of his Lick Library DVDs - not the one with Stuart Bull as I am not interested in licks per se, but improvising over changes.  VERY tempted to go on one of his guitar breaks, but in all honesty he is SO good that it would probably be wasted on me - take me a week to absorb the first lesson probably.  Also, there would probably be a load of nerdy hotshots there who would make me feel even more inept.  

However, his TONE is nothing special (no offence Tom).

Yes, both Tom Quayle's right and and left hand techniques are fantastic, his Spain Guitar breaks seem to be at the same location as the wonderful player Mike Walker had guitar breaks years ago.

I think that Tom Quayle's tone is effected by his incredible Legato technique, because legato has it's own tone, and then  he changes slightly with every new pedal, new guitar, new amp, new technique, etc.  Technically, to my ears, he's a top, top player.

Have fun

Tom is technically very good but I think his playing boring.  he plays too many notes.  Jack Gardiner is most tasteful IMO. 

 

Fusionista

bingefeller said:

Tom is technically very good but I think his playing boring.  he plays too many notes.  Jack Gardiner is most tasteful IMO.  

Thanks for that.  First thing I thought was Guthrie had himself cloned !  Fantastic playing  - is he playing anywhere outside the bedroom ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wlVVFAvAGA

Dave_Mc

^ Wow that was pretty sweet. As you said, he sounds very like guthrie govan (which is high praise in my book).

Phil_aka_Pip

GuyBoden said:

Blueingreen said:

Also, many jazzers have typically been snotty about rock pop players and consciously avoid tones or techniques (eg string bending, vibrato) that make them sound more rock-like.

Maybe, it's just that some Jazz guitarists are jealous of all the money that famous Rock/Pop guitarists have made.

Rock guitarist - plays 3 chords to thousands of people
Jazz guitarist - plays thousands of chords to 3 people

Skipped

Returning to my earlier theme (6 months ago...)
Is it possible that certain guitarists are trying to emulate the sound of Fifties Legends who played through the amp provided by the studio and may not have changed their strings for 2 years?