Fender custom shop rumour—is this true?

thegummy

stratology said:

thegummy said:

The thing I said was the opposite of science and worthless was playing a guitar, changing something on it then playing it again and comparing what you think the difference in sound was.

Actually, if you look at the history of this thread, you were the only one here who suggested playing and listening tests as scientific method...

You are obviously trolling now. Please don't reply to any of my posts.

thegummy

carlos said:

"This guitar sounds better to my ears"
https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Unfalsifiability

Although in the case of someone claiming a guitar sounds better, it can actually be proved if he can hear the difference between that and others.

stratology

thegummy said:

An example of how science could be applied to the thing in question would be to make several recordings of the guitar with the screws tightened then make several more after loosening the screws. Whoever is playing it would try to play as similarly on all the recordings but it will vary each time, that's why there would be several of each.

Then a number of people would listen to pairs of recordings, one of each set, without knowing which was which (the most important part really) and choose which was better. 
...
BTW I'm only giving this as an example of a scientific test 

Then:

thegummy said:
The thing I said was the opposite of science and worthless was playing a guitar, changing something on it then playing it again and comparing what you think the difference in sound was.

ThePrettyDamned

francer said:

ThePrettyDamned 

Totally. I pretty much think the neck rules mostly, the recent concrete guitar build indicates a strat will still sound broadly stratty no matter the material of the body. 

Are you sure? Maybe the pickups and electronics have something to with it. Considering Jazzmaster and Tele both have the same scale length as a Strat you are suggesting the character of strattiness lives in the headstock shape?

No, sorry, I should have made clear... it's the electronics in terms of the amplified sound. I think the neck has more to do with the unplugged sound than than the body, though - I thought that would be clear from the discussion, but maybe I needed to be clearer. 

Scale has nothing to do with it. Put a capo on a strat tuned half step down to change it to 24 inch and it still sounds like a strat. 

If a concrete body guitar sounds broadly stratty once plugged in, is there much value in chasing tonewoods? Prolly not. 

francer

ThePrettyDamned said:

francer said:

ThePrettyDamned 

Totally. I pretty much think the neck rules mostly, the recent concrete guitar build indicates a strat will still sound broadly stratty no matter the material of the body. 

Are you sure? Maybe the pickups and electronics have something to with it. Considering Jazzmaster and Tele both have the same scale length as a Strat you are suggesting the character of strattiness lives in the headstock shape?

No, sorry, I should have made clear... it's the electronics in terms of the amplified sound. I think the neck has more to do with the unplugged sound than than the body, though - I thought that would be clear from the discussion, but maybe I needed to be clearer. 

Scale has nothing to do with it. Put a capo on a strat tuned half step down to change it to 24 inch and it still sounds like a strat. 

If a concrete body guitar sounds broadly stratty once plugged in, is there much value in chasing tonewoods? Prolly not. 

Sure, I guess that makes sense. I would find it very hard to believe anyone suggesting they can tell the difference between a Strat, Tele or Jazzmaster neck attached to a concrete body and played acoustically. They are constructed absolutely identically barring headstock shape and the tele heel. But, I’ve never tried it and I don’t have very ‘musicianly’ ears, so maybe there are people who can, perhaps I should keep and open mind.

Anyhow, so much of this stuff seems to me to be about FOMO, and making us dissatisfied with our own guitars because they haven’t been selected by the magic tapping method. As others have mentioned, there’s no mention of closing the loop and actually seeing if this method does yield a great guitar, although it has that specious ring of truth about that suggests it might.

What if you get a perfect 5th or whatever between your body and neck but it’s not in concert pitch, which by the laws of averages it almost certainly won’t be, how is that supposed to make your guitar sound better, every note will be out of tune with the body?

thegummy

ThePrettyDamned said:

No, sorry, I should have made clear... it's the electronics in terms of the amplified sound. I think the neck has more to do with the unplugged sound than than the body, though - I thought that would be clear from the discussion, but maybe I needed to be clearer. 

Scale has nothing to do with it. Put a capo on a strat tuned half step down to change it to 24 inch and it still sounds like a strat. 

If a concrete body guitar sounds broadly stratty once plugged in, is there much value in chasing tonewoods? Prolly not. 

Is there any reason to pay any mind to the sound of an unplugged electric guitar?

I have heard of people considering the unplugged sound before but that's usually with the idea that it goes on to affect the plugged in sound.

stratology

francer said:

As others have mentioned, there’s no mention of closing the loop and actually seeing if this method does yield a great guitar, although it has that specious ring of truth about that suggests it might.

I don't think there's a single deciding factor that makes a 'great' guitar. More like in sound engineering - many small changes and variables that come together. Materials - as in different wood species, brass/steel/titanium etc. for hardware, wire diameter and magnet material for pickups, construction (set neck vs. bolt on) all make a very small difference in isolation, but produce distinctively different sounds when several factors come together. 


When a person - like a luthier in the Fender custom shop - has the opportunity to play with all these variables all day every day, and gets feedback from similarly obsessed, like minded (and possibly competitive) co-workers every day, you can expect that this person gathers experience, learns how to take all the details into account, and learns which combination of the different variables produce specific results.

PhilKing

Bork

ThePrettyDamned said

If a concrete body guitar sounds broadly stratty once plugged in, is there much value in chasing tonewoods? Prolly not. 

For strats,  a proportion of the timbre is electronics for sure.  Compare a maple bodied strat to swamp ash and mahogany one and there is still a stratty character.  But that's more about the recipe for strats than guitars generally.

For jazz boxes,  the differences between mahogany and maple are very apparent. 

There's no reason to dismiss the properties of herbs and their impact on flavor entirely just because one recipe relies on a charcoal grill for a proportion of it's flavour.

stratology

Here's the video that I mentioned earlier, comparing body woods, while keeping all other variables the same:

GoldenEraGuitars

stratology said:

Here's the video that I mentioned earlier, comparing body woods, while keeping all other variables the same:

I don’t think I’ve seen this although it pops up on my YouTube feed to watch periodically. Without having to sit through it, do they weigh the different bodies they’re using too?

prowla

I would've thought that, along with dead spots, the last thing you want is for an instrument to resonate at a particular frequency.

Alex2678

prowla said:

I would've thought that, along with dead spots, the last thing you want is for an instrument to resonate at a particular frequency.

That’s kinda what I was trying to suggest with my post on page one, my entire guitar resonated in a weird way when I played an E and all the E notes died

ICBM

francer said:

I would find it very hard to believe anyone suggesting they can tell the difference between a Strat, Tele or Jazzmaster neck attached to a concrete body and played acoustically. They are constructed absolutely identically barring headstock shape and the tele heel. But, I’ve never tried it and I don’t have very ‘musicianly’ ears, so maybe there are people who can, perhaps I should keep and open mind.

I think there’s a difference - the mass of the headstock has quite a large bearing on the resonance of the neck. The Tele head is very small and light, and I think this is a factor in the typically tight, snappy Tele sound. Strat to original Jazzmaster, much less difference - they’re a very similar size - but pre-CBS Strat to CBS is actually the difference that first made me realise it was probably a factor.

I never liked the large CBS headstock until I started to notice that late-60s Strats typically have a deeper, more scooped tone than earlier ones which are more middy - irrespective of fingerboard types, bridges or pickups. The CBS ones just sound more Hendrix or Blackmore-like, and not because they look like it. The CBS headstock is about 30% heavier than the pre-CBS one.

If you don’t think it might matter, watch a strobe film of how the headstock of a guitar moves when the strings are vibrating.

WezV

prowla said:

I would've thought that, along with dead spots, the last thing you want is for an instrument to resonate at a particular frequency.

basically correct, but its not quite that simple.

I mentioned a book on page 2 which is mainly focused on acoustic instruments
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Luthiers-Handbook-Building-Acoustic-Instruments/dp/0634014684

here is an extract

WezV

ICBM said:

If you don’t think it might matter, watch a strobe film of how the headstock of a guitar moves when the strings are vibrating.

i used to have a link to some of these which made it so clear, but they haven't worked for quite a while

Bork

prowla said:

I would've thought that, along with dead spots, the last thing you want is for an instrument to resonate at a particular frequency.

Everything has a resonant frequency as I stated earlier.  The trick is more about management rather that avoidance or removal.  The most common solution is to engineer parts so the peaks are outside the useful frequency response of the guitar. 

The idea around aligning materials so frequency peaks are harmonised within the frequency response of the guitar potentially makes the problem with dead spots on the fingerboard worse.  at least to my thinking.