Pickup Upgrade Overadvised?

thegummy

What do you think of the idea that upgrading to "premium" pickups is overrated, or that stock pickups on cheap guitars (as long as they're not ridiculously cheapo like using ceramic bars for Strat pickups) can be perfectly fine in their own right?

If it's changing from vintage output stock to high output or from single coil to humbucker that doesn't count, I only mean like-for-like.

There's the cliche of "this cheap guitar with a pickup upgrade is as good as an expensive guitar" but I wonder if the pickup upgrade is maybe just added because saying the cheap guitar is better at stock is so much more of a bold statement whereas there might be less resistance from people when a caveat is added?

In a way it's a bit rich for me to be saying this because out of the 7 pickups I currently use, 4 are Bare Knuckle and 3 are Oil City. But 2 of the BKP ones were bought by my Mrs as a present because I was talking about them a lot and it was even before I bought the guitar to put them in so I was always going to replace them. With my Strat the stock pickups broke so I went for Bare Knuckle and Oil City but it's not like I tried out cheaper ones first and felt the need to go for higher ones, I just went for the good name ones to save having to care about whether they were good enough.

Sassafras

I'd only change pickups if there was something I didn't like about the current ones.
If it ain't broke, I won't fix it.

munckee

I had a squier standard strat a few years ago which sounded okay, I bought a loaded pickguard with axes r us pickups in, not top draw name but in theory an upgrade.  After a while the new pickups didn't sound stratty enough so I put the stock pickups with the axes r us wiring in.

That was by far my favourite and it turned out the cheap 500k pots were the problem not the alnico 5 pickups.

I do like 'good' pickups too my tele has a set of bare knuckle country boys and I'm pretty sure that's why I love the tele so much,

rpr

Think having a good amp helps...

thegummy

Sassafras said:

I'd only change pickups if there was something I didn't like about the current ones.
If it ain't broke, I won't fix it.

I think that's the sensible thing.

I think there's a tendency with myself and others to think "I want to get the best pickups possible" so they ask what pickups they should get for an x description of sound.

Really the best thing is to try to get that sound with the stock pickups then if you can't, think about exactly what it is you're missing and find the replacements based on that.

What about the idea that a different set of cheap pickups would solve any problem? Or is there something inherently better about more expensive ones that the cheap ones can't replicate?

Obviously only asking out of interest and for the knowledgebase of the board - one of the main benefits of actually buying the premium version is that you never have to worry if it's better than the budget version, you get the best one either way.

grappagreen

It's very hard to hear with your wallet...

thegummy

rpr said:

Think having a good amp helps...

Would you say the better the amp, the less difference between pickups or the more difference between pickups?

Another thing I find is that playing with headphones - whether a modeller or the output of a mic on a cab - lets you hear much more subtle details in the tone than when you're in the room with the amp blasting.

thegummy

grappagreen said:

It's very hard to hear with your wallet...

That's true, albeit a strange thing to note.

fretmeister

Aside from the very cheap ones I don't think any well made pickup is an "upgrade" over any other pickup.
I think it's just different flavours that people like or don't.

There are very few objectively bad pickups in new guitars anymore, but there are many that I subjectively don't like as much compared to my favourite ones.

Cols

Electronics is one of the leading areas where cost cutting is achieved for budget and mid price guitars, and pickup replacement is an easy and worthwhile area to address.  All of my guitars have had pickup replacement with the exception of a beater Tele used, and it’s been money well spent every time.
 

For more expensive guitars, it’s more a change of flavour than a jump in quality.

grappagreen

thegummy said:

grappagreen said:

It's very hard to hear with your wallet...

That's true, albeit a strange thing to note.

I'm not sure what's strange about this comment to be honest. Are pickup changes over-advised? Yes IMHO as there is a dominant preconception that more expensive pickups (or anything actually) sound better. Did someone say 'better' again? Oh dear..

Bennyboy-UK

Funnily enough, once upon a time I had a strat with Ceramic bar magnet single coils - it was actually sounded completely fine and I felt no urge to replace them for any reason. I didn't feel I was missing anything that the guitar would suddenly sound better for changing out the pickups.

Conversely, the PRS EG which I owned for a while - really, really nice guitar with 3 Fralin Domino pickups. Sounded weak and wimpy to my ears - and I did wonder about doing a swap out for other pickups, but restrained myself, and sold the guitar in the end replacing it with an early 90's Music Man Silhouette, also with three single coils, which sounded far far better all round - again to my ears.

Weird eh...

rossi

I found the cheapo Squier SE and Affinity  ceramic type pickups sounded much better after being lower .I mean much better for my style of music like bluesy rock and bit jazzy etc all finger style .

skullfunkerry

I posted three comparison soundclips a while back between a SD Omega, an EMG81 and a Duncan Designed HB-103 (which I think is the cheaper version of a Duncan Distortion). General consensus of opinion was:

• Under high gain, any differences in pickups are minimised
• The Duncan Designed wasn't as tight in the bottom end (oo-er) and had a congested midrange - which a couple of people actually preferred
• That said, it held its own pretty well against the other two (vastly more expensive) pickups

I've only got two guitars now - one has an Oil City Djenerator in it, and the other has stock Ibanez "Quantum" pickups. They're pretty good, lots of clarity which I like. I have recently though discovered that the volume doesn't quite kill the output (I was doing some recording with a friend a few weeks ago and I had some feedback issues that I had to unplug the guitar to kill)... also when I compare them to the OCP in my Jackson they definitely don't sound as thick and full. The best word I can think of to describe them is they sound "brittle".

So I've got a pair of Djenerators on order from Ash - while I'm fitting them I'll put a new volume pot in too. I've got to say though, if it was my only guitar and I hadn't been to the studio with it I'd have been more than happy with the stock pickups.

So that's a load of text! Short version: pickups can make a difference, but the stock ones aren't necessarily bad...

thegummy

grappagreen said:

thegummy said:

grappagreen said:

It's very hard to hear with your wallet...

That's true, albeit a strange thing to note.

I'm not sure what's strange about this comment to be honest. Are pickup changes over-advised? Yes IMHO as there is a dominant preconception that more expensive pickups (or anything actually) sound better. Did someone say 'better' again? Oh dear..

Well one of my questions is whether the pickups that cost a lot are better than cheaper ones but obviously the price itself doesn't affect it, no one would think that.

It's like a question whether a Porsch is faster than a Corsa and saying that your wallet can't make a car go faster - it's not that the price would make it faster, it's that one reason people pay more for the former is because it is faster.

So the question is - do the pickups that successfully sell for a high price have something that makes them better to a lot of people and that's why they pay the price? Or is it just successful marketing and people are tricked in to paying more for the same thing?

thegummy

skullfunkerry said:

I posted three comparison soundclips a while back between a SD Omega, an EMG81 and a Duncan Designed HB-103 (which I think is the cheaper version of a Duncan Distortion). General consensus of opinion was:

• Under high gain, any differences in pickups are minimised
• The Duncan Designed wasn't as tight in the bottom end (oo-er) and had a congested midrange - which a couple of people actually preferred
• That said, it held its own pretty well against the other two (vastly more expensive) pickups

I've only got two guitars now - one has an Oil City Djenerator in it, and the other has stock Ibanez "Quantum" pickups. They're pretty good, lots of clarity which I like. I have recently though discovered that the volume doesn't quite kill the output (I was doing some recording with a friend a few weeks ago and I had some feedback issues that I had to unplug the guitar to kill)... also when I compare them to the OCP in my Jackson they definitely don't sound as thick and full. The best word I can think of to describe them is they sound "brittle".

So I've got a pair of Djenerators on order from Ash - while I'm fitting them I'll put a new volume pot in too. I've got to say though, if it was my only guitar and I hadn't been to the studio with it I'd have been more than happy with the stock pickups.

So that's a load of text! Short version: pickups can make a difference, but the stock ones aren't necessarily bad...

Good post.

I would think that just like the high gain point, the pickups you're comparing being fairly high gain themselves (unless I'm mistaken) would possibly lead to less of a difference as well.

I'd imagine that a vintage Strat or a PAF type pickup would be where any differences would be more noticeable.

skullfunkerry

thegummy said:

skullfunkerry said:

I posted three comparison soundclips a while back between a SD Omega, an EMG81 and a Duncan Designed HB-103 (which I think is the cheaper version of a Duncan Distortion). General consensus of opinion was:

• Under high gain, any differences in pickups are minimised
• The Duncan Designed wasn't as tight in the bottom end (oo-er) and had a congested midrange - which a couple of people actually preferred
• That said, it held its own pretty well against the other two (vastly more expensive) pickups

I've only got two guitars now - one has an Oil City Djenerator in it, and the other has stock Ibanez "Quantum" pickups. They're pretty good, lots of clarity which I like. I have recently though discovered that the volume doesn't quite kill the output (I was doing some recording with a friend a few weeks ago and I had some feedback issues that I had to unplug the guitar to kill)... also when I compare them to the OCP in my Jackson they definitely don't sound as thick and full. The best word I can think of to describe them is they sound "brittle".

So I've got a pair of Djenerators on order from Ash - while I'm fitting them I'll put a new volume pot in too. I've got to say though, if it was my only guitar and I hadn't been to the studio with it I'd have been more than happy with the stock pickups.

So that's a load of text! Short version: pickups can make a difference, but the stock ones aren't necessarily bad...

Good post.

I would think that just like the high gain point, the pickups you're comparing being fairly high gain themselves (unless I'm mistaken) would possibly lead to less of a difference as well.

I'd imagine that a vintage Strat or a PAF type pickup would be where any differences would be more noticeable.

Yeah, I suspect you're right

LastMantra

I've heard plenty of people talk about fitting new pickups (and tuners and other parts) before they even have the guitar to try. I've done it myself in the past. Don't really know what it's all about but it's definitely a thing.
Electric guitars in particular seem to have a lot of nonsense around them. Weird. 

JayGee

I get very uncomfortable when people talk about “upgrading” something. If they can’t describe what they want to achieve in more specific terms than “an upgrade” it seems unlikely that they’ll be making good decisions about what to change and in what way...

I personally have a mid ‘80s Japanese Stratocaster which I’ve owned for ages, and has benefited greatly from the installation of a set of Bare Knuckles “Slowhands” which probably retail for more than I originally paid for the guitar. I love that guitar dearly, there is something Intrinsically right for me about it that, after working my way right along the expensive end of Peach Guitars old shop kept me coming back to it, the only trouble was that I couldn’t get the ethereal sparkle out of it which a good custom shop (or even US standard) Strat could deliver with ease, if I turned the treble on an amp up beyond a certain point it just got harsh and scratchy rather than adding sparkle. At this point old hands will be nodding their heads knowledgeably and pointing at the cheap ceramic bar magnet pickups which were unaccountably screwed into MIJ Fenders at the time, and that’s exactly what John at Peach did. We then worked our way through a few more guitars, talked about what I liked (or disliked) about them (and why) and the upshot was the BK Slow Hand set, which did indeed turn the guitar into the instrument I’d always wanted it to be at a heck of a lot lower cost than achieving the same thing with a new guitar.

That’s a bit ramble, but the thing I’m working my way towards is that you need to know what you want to achieve, you can then talk to someone knowledgeable about it and come up with a way of achieving it, which in my case was indeed to fit a set of relatively expensive pickups to a relatively cheap guitar, but, without that analysis I could easily have spent a similar amount of money and been disappointed....

Cirrus

Pickups can make a massive difference, but it's so context dependent. Some rigs, playing styles etc minimise the differences.

To take something I've got a fair amount of experience with; my Explorer. It came with a 500t in the bridge, and I've had 4 mid-gain paf-style bridge humbuckers; Seymour Duncan A2 Pros, 59s, Pearly Gates and a Gibson Burstbucker 2. I've also had a Firebird Style p'up from Oil city in there. They all sound different. None of them are necessarily better, and I wouldn't change from one to the other in pursuit of ill defined "better" tone.

But knowing how I play and what I'm looking for, I could make a meaningful choice to switch from one to the other;

500t: Better than it's credited, great driving distortion and edgy cleans. Not what I was after so...

A2 Pro: Soft and spongey when you dig in hard, nice cleans. Kept these for 8 years until I fancied a change.

59s: Much stiffer attack and more bass than the above, I found them hard work

Oil City Winterizer firebird style: Spanky, thick and rich bottom, plenty of pick attack.

Pearly Gates; great for single notes because of the big midrange, but smoothed out the spank in pick attack too much which made rhythm playing and arpeggios mush together. Kind of like there was always a tubescreamer hiding in the signal somewhere.

Burstbucker 2: tighter lows, decent pick attack, big roaring midrange that doesn't get too thick like the Pearly Gates did, distortion has an edgy grind to it


They're all great pickups, and any one of them would be an upgrade to a player if it brought them closer to the sound in their head.

You could make the argument that a casual lister wouldn't be able to pick them apart. I'd say maybe they could or couldn't. But a guitar is a tool you express yourself on, and as a player you know what you're putting into the strings and what you're getting out of the speaker - the difference between these two is the feel of the guitar. If a guitar feels good to play, things are easier, quicker and more fun. If it doesn't, maybe you'll still get the same result but it'll be more of a struggle. I did a test between the Pearly Gates and Burstbucker 2 on a song with an overdriven arpeggio. I could get them to sound basically the same, but I had to play so differently to get the chime I wanted on the pick attack with the Pearly Gates. The BB2 just... gave it to me, so I didn't need to think about how I was hitting the guitar strings. That's an upgrade in my book.

In a different context, a different player might find the opposite - that the Pearly Gates is a big upgrade over the BB2.


Then there's actual cheap stuff. I recently picked up a Gretsch with their infamous "gretschbuckers". They are seriously mediocre p'ups with distortion, the bottom end is a shapeless blob, and the upper mids and treble are like wire wool wrapped in cotton wool to my ears.

BUT

They're really nice for cleans when fingerpicking, go figure. If you're mostly doing that, "upgrading" would be pointless. If you want a more focussed overdrive sound, almost anything aftermarket would be a big improvement.


In conclusion... it's not about how much pickups cost. It's about whether they make the guitar as a music making tool easier or harder for you personally to get where you need to go.

HAL9000

My experience is that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. My MIM Strat benefitted hugely from a set of Oil Citys. My Tele sounded worse after 'upgrading' the pickups. I've now pretty much decided to leave things stock in future.