Scottish Referendum question(s)

Clarky

I saw a little of the debate…

it wasn't a debate at all..

neither side allowed each other to talk without interruption..

it was like kids in a playground.. silly point scoring..

the only outcome I saw is that there is more uncertainty than anything else [nice at this late stage]

both sides convinced me that they are totally clueless..

Fretwired

UnclePsychosis said:

Check out the likes of National Collective, Wings Over Scotland, Labour For Indy, BellaCaledonia, Common Weal, Scot Goes Pop and Radical Independence. Also, Patrick Harvie the leader of the Scottish Green party is for me a far more eloquent and likable advocate of Yes than Salmond is.

So why was the debate between Salmond and Darling if there are other parties with valid opinions? The impression we get in England is it's basically Salmond versus Scottish Labour with a few Lib Dems.

chrispy108

PolarityMan said:

John_P said:

@chrispy108 ; wisdom.


For me the bigger issues about national identity and a sense of who you are as a nation are more important in the longer term.

If the goal is self determination then financial independence is surely a pre-requisite. Every option presented except an independent currency leaves Scotland with less control of their finances not more.

Well, you obviously lose the ability to change interest rates and use quantitative easing if you use a currency you don't control, but you still get to what you tax, how much, and what it is spent on.

You wouldn't argue that Slovakia isn't independent from France on the basis they share a currency would you?

chrispy108

Indeed @Fretwired, that certainly is the impression you get from the media, Salmond vs all.

Shame about the debate @Clarky, it sounds like the West Wing quote I've posted a few times. Just a series of soundbites, not an actual debate.

My main worry with polls like this, is that too much will be read into the referendum. By that I mean, whichever way the vote goes, we're going to hear "The people have spoken" for the next decade, with whatever topic is being discussed.

When actually, what has happened, is that a majority of people have decided that overall they feel one way or another, it doesn't mean that they agree whole-heartedly with everything either side has said.

Ie, A yes vote doesn't mean that everyone in Scotland want nothing to do with England, Trident gone, no currency union, etc etc, but it will be spun that way by some.

A no vote wouldn't mean that everyone in Scotland wants to fully re-integrate with England and lose their Parliament, but some will spin it that way.

This is obviously an issue with politics in general, not just this case, politicans see a vote for them as a mandate for everything they stand for, rather than just an overall decision, which might be you agree with them on the majority of things, but it could be that you love the other party, apart from one thing they stand for which is a dealbreaker for you.

UnclePsychosis

Fretwired;332709" said:

UnclePsychosis said:

Check out the likes of National Collective, Wings Over Scotland, Labour For Indy, BellaCaledonia, Common Weal, Scot Goes Pop and Radical Independence. Also, Patrick Harvie the leader of the Scottish Green party is for me a far more eloquent and likable advocate of Yes than Salmond is.












So why was the debate between Salmond and Darling if there are other parties with valid opinions? The impression we get in England is it's basically Salmond versus Scottish Labour with a few Lib Dems.

There have been literally hundreds of smaller debates and public engagement events all across Scotland for the last two years featuring many of those groups.

The big TV debates are always going to feature the well known politicians. That's the way modern politics (sadly) works.

The reason the London based media have spun it as "Salmond vs..." is partly because he's the only Scottish politician most English people have heard of, partly because he's the leader of the biggest political party in the Yes campaign, partly 'cos he's a loudmouth, and partly because it suits them to paint it that way. It's easier to fight a single person than it is a whole conglomerate.

Of course Salmond is an important part of the debate. But he's not the only part. Every time people try to pretend otherwise it does a lot of Scots a great disservice.

Clarky

based on that debate, if I were Scots I'd want independence from from everyone.. 

both the UK and especially from Salmond and his henchmen..

Rocker

On Thursday it will all be decided.  Good luck Scotland.  The world is watching you.....

Clarky

I wonder how the non-Scots Brits would vote in a "stay or leave" vote

capo4th

I think it will be a narrow no because many Scots are scared of the uncertainty. If they vote yes can we build a large wall and charge an entrance fee every time they want to pop over the border...

Hootsmon

here we go here we go here we go.....

musicegbdf

Ok have to be honest got very bored of the whole debate , but now getting very angry at our three main leaders trying to bribe the Scottish people. I have read a lot of the comments and agree mainly with the comments made by Drew.
Read an interesting article in the telegraph today by a labour mp which I think sums up the contempt with the leaders of the main parties. Salmond is looking like a nice honest guy in comparison.
Will try and find the article, which educated me about Bartlett/ West Lothian of which I must admit being ignorant of the whole issue

capo4th

Will the Scots fund their own NHS ?

musicegbdf

Can't copy the link, but it is Dan Hodges blog today.
If like me you are ignorant of some of the key points this will educate you,like it did for me.
I really feel there is anger building south of the border, not at the Scots but at our politicians playing games with all of our futures

chillidoggy

I agree. They should be standing firm, not giving up the family silverware.

thomasross20

I still love you all. 

;D

Fretwired

musicegbdf said:

Can't copy the link, but it is Dan Hodges blog today.
If like me you are ignorant of some of the key points this will educate you,like it did for me.
I really feel there is anger building south of the border, not at the Scots but at our politicians playing games with all of our futures

I'm hearing Cameron's finished - he'll face a massive rebellion of Tory MPs and it is conceivable that the three wise monkey's promises will be voted down as there are some unhappy Labour MPs as well. Farage must think Christmas has come early.


Dan Hodges blog:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100286555/the-english-want-scotland-to-remain-part-of-the-union-but-not-at-any-price/


This is an interesting admission of failure:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11100400/My-funding-formula-for-Scotland-is-a-terrible-mistake-Lord-Barnett-admits.html

And a sad state of affairs in Scotland .. David Sole is a Scottish legend ..
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/11099705/Scotland-rugby-legend-reveals-abuse-over-Scottish-independence-No-statement.html

We're in for years of pain no matter what happens.

koneguitarist

I feel Scotland and the rest of the Uk will all lose if a YES vote wins.

We are stronger together than apart.

Clarky

possibly the rest of the UK will lose out even more if No wins

Fretwired

Clarky said:

possibly the rest of the UK will lose out even more if No wins

Spot on. The campaign has got very nasty. The best thing is a yes vote IMHO.

Clarky

in a tv interview today, Salmon was saying that the Royal Navy would continue to build ships in Scotland..

the reporter asked if he knew that for sure..

Salmond said no, but the shipbuilding guys had nothing to worry about if they vote yes.. 

I've got a feeling that he's skirting over the detail and making promises that are not his to keep..

I think he's lying to the people of Scotland..

he wants independence.. he wants to be the first prime minister of an independent Scotland

and I think he's being pretty ruthless about it..

either way.. the UK tax payer will be forking out a fortune on the appeasement deals.. or the massive logistical BS exercise required for the UK to bring back home everything it owns that's up there..

so no matter what the outcome…

the ordinary English, Welsh and N Irish folk will foot the bill for something they had no say in..

pretty selfish and fkd up if you ask me..

I hope now that Scotland votes yes and the rest of the UK breaks all ties.. 

cos it'll cost us less and be fairer to the rest of us in the long term..

divorce is a very expensive hobby..