Scottish Referendum question(s)

RaymondLin

The whole thing sounds like they want to have their cake and eat it. They want independence but without the risk of going their own currency or the euro.

PolarityMan

Defaulting with or without currency union would be economic suicide. I'm not sure why salmond keeps peddling it.

PolarityMan

Property market in Scotland is hugely cheaper than uk so Union without ability to set interest rates seme like a massive risk too

johnnyurq

hungrymark said:

Haha, who on earth ever mentions Culloden?!

@hungrymark

Plenty no neck BNP types around here when on holiday and some that moved here , you know the ones.

They seem to think it is fun to bait the locals about it.

We close to the site have no interest in revisiting it (other than academic interest and accuracy) but it seem some are intent on reminding everyone in a thoroughly unpleasant way.

Note I never specifically said BNP (although I have seen some with BNP tats saying what a glorious win for England) I used it as short hand for the sorts that fit a similar profile, for Fretwired's benefit BTW.

Just because you don't hear or see it down your way doesn't mean it doesn't happen or exist. So laugh it up because it is not pleasant or needed.

On the matter of the debate nothing but point scoring and no substance will come of it, modern TV debgates are a sideshow to demonstrate who has the cleverest spin doctors.

PolarityMan

I wish they would actually do numbers on a whiteboard.....I have gathered that the first minister really real wants a man date though.....saucy.

johnnyurq

RaymondLin;331797" said:

The whole thing sounds like they want to have their cake and eat it. They want independence but without the risk of going their own currency or the euro.

Who is this they if you wouldn't mind enlightening me?

If you mean Salmond then yes he does seem to want that, ordinary Scots not so much.

The default thing is political posturing and would not have support apart from a small number of fervent Nats. But I agree he needs to STFU about it as an ill thought out decision, as do the No lot with their so called "project fear" I have heard bandied about. They are as bad as each other with the No lot taling the honours FUD wise.

Our own currency would be a better way for me if it is a Yes but happy to entertain other options if any are feasible or possible.

Precisely has been said we need to be able to set interest rates and the like.

I will wait for the autopsy after the debate for the edited highlights or most likely lowlights and I cannot see it changing many minds. Well not in any sufficient numbers I wouldn't imagine.

johnnyurq

PolarityMan;331820" said:

I wish they would actually do numbers on a whiteboard.....I have gathered that the first minister really real wants a man date though.....saucy.

Wow that is news to me that wee Eck is gay, every day is a school day.


I am guessing that it is all a bit lame then, quelle suprise.

PolarityMan

johnnyurq said:

RaymondLin;331797" said:

The whole thing sounds like they want to have their cake and eat it. They want independence but without the risk of going their own currency or the euro.

Who is this they if you wouldn't mind enlightening me?

If you mean Salmond then yes he does seem to want that, ordinary Scots not so much.

The default thing is political posturing and would not have support apart from a small number of fervent Nats. But I agree he needs to STFU about it as an ill thought out decision, as do the No lot with their so called "project fear" I have heard bandied about. They are as bad as each other with the No lot taling the honours FUD wise.

Our own currency would be a better way for me if it is a Yes but happy to entertain other options if any are feasible or possible.

Precisely has been said we need to be able to set interest rates and the like.

I will wait for the autopsy after the debate for the edited highlights or most likely lowlights and I cannot see it changing many minds. Well not in any sufficient numbers I wouldn't imagine.

Totally agree it would have to be own currency not a great option but probably the best in the event of independence. Probably massively at risk due to market uncertainty in the short term but all the other options have much worse long term risks.

johnnyurq

My concern is that a currency union would be worse than we are now or with any new Devo powers and therefore pretty pointless.

Not being an economist I may be missing something and it may be possible to operate within an agreed informal currency union be that sterling or the Euro which have both been talked about. Wouldn't be my first choice though.

But as the UK govern,ent say no it is all academic anyway so why make silly threats like the default one, we are trying in the event of a Yes to stand on our own two feet and be masters of our own destiny.

PolarityMan

The default is ridiculous, apart from cost of credit issues there would be severe liquidity problems covering the initial cost of independence. Devolution I think is being framed in the ring context to, I think across the whole country decentralising appropriate levels of fiscal responsibility would be a good thing

johnnyurq

Agreed and England then could have the ability to tailor more to the wishes of the populous like wot we and the others can. Hopefully at the same time any other contentious issues like the West Lothian thing can gbet sorted.

Any default would bankrupt us and make us fiscal pariahs for a long time to come, we would be wishing we were Greece or Spain afore long.


If this even on the table earlier I reckon the whole Indy thing would have been kicked down the road for a long time or maybe even permanently.

It remains to be seen if the UK government do honour their offer of more Devo etc in the event of a no, then maybe a similar thing could be rolled out to wherever they wish to have it.

It would be a good time then for the discussion on all of that to begin UK wide.

Hootsmon

heh heh....I loved the bit in tonights debate when Darling,feeling slightly ruffled, said..." wait just a moment,haud on..."

ICBM

Interesting. I think Salmond won on points this time, but behaved badly in several places and undermined his own arguments because of it.

Not good that the studio audience was allowed to be overtly partisan either.

I was also disappointed there was no discussion of Scotland's wider place in the world other than the Trident issue.

PolarityMan

I think Darling was very strong in the beginning but Salmond kind of bull dozed him towards then end. Trouble is with Salmond is that he ostentiously has the burden of putting in place the "new world order" so the fact that he is unwilling to share plans in detail of how that will happen should really be a red flag.

The only question I thought that Salmond had a really good point on was what powers Darling would campaign for as additional devolution in the event of a no vote. Trouble is you would really need someone with the ownership of that decision to make a meaningful answer, which would mean posing it to someone in the current government.

I feel a Cameron versus Salmond debate would be a disaster for the no campaign though. 

mellowsun

Basically it's got to be worth voting 'Yes' to be rid of the Tories once and for all.

If the 'Yes' vote wins, then I would imagine a lot of talented people will head from other parts of the UK to Scotland in the event of a Tory win at the next Westminster elections.

There's a lot of people on the left or centre who would prefer Scotland to stay in the UK, but given a 'Yes' vote will still want to see Scotland succeed. 

Given a choice between staying in England while the NHS is destroyed and austerity continues to be taken out on the sick and disabled there, or a contributing to a fairer society in Scotland, many will choose the latter.

John_P

I live in Yorkshire so I don't have a strong opinion  (other than hoping for a yes vote so we can then do the same ;-) )

I enjoyed watching the debate tonight and thought Salmond was a clear winner - Darling was starting to look ridiculous harping on about plan B after Salmond gave him (what appeared to me) a clear list of options several times. 
I was actually starting to wonder if Darling really had any convincing arguments for the no vote and why he was in the debate instead of a torydem cabinet minister or indeed shouldn't Cameron be doing it?

PolarityMan

John_P said:

I was actually starting to wonder if Darling really had any convincing arguments for the no vote and why he was in the debate instead of a torydem cabinet minister or indeed shouldn't Cameron be doing it?

The thing is the plan B's, other than own currency, are all mostly non starters if your goal is self determination. 

johnnyurq

No doubt Salmond is being thrawn about giving no details much to his detriment but it fair to say the better together lot are behaving similarly it is just less focussed on due to Salmond shooting himself in the foot.

The worst thing about it is the prospect of loads of these types of TV debates in the run up to the General Election. FML it will be so dull and mind suckingly shite.

Fretwired

I watched the full 90 minutes. Salmond reminds me of a north of the border version of Arthur Daley. Awful debate which ended up being a slanging match. I love the 'vote yes to stop the Tories' ... yet there's no anti-English rhetoric - right. I hope everyone votes yes to end the pain.

I'm not a Cameron fan but I'd vote for him any day over Salmond - he has more chance of winning the lottery than getting a currency union yet he stands there promising people he'll get one. However he won the debate by shouting loudest and seemed to have a pro devolution audience. Unfortunately Darling wobbled too many times and didn't fully answer the questions he was asked.

Fretwired

Apparently Spain and Belgium 'would veto an independent Scotland's EU membership' according to Ruairi Quinn, former president of EU's finance council. Secessionist movements in both countries would mean they block membership application.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11054187/Spain-and-Belgium-would-veto-an-independent-Scotlands-EU-membership.html