Scottish Referendum question(s)

UnclePsychosis

Scotland has too much pull in Westminster? Having a few high profile Scottish politicians doesn't mean that Scotland as a country has influence. There's certainly no Scottish agenda influencing policy. The reason the SNP have a majority in a parliament designed to produce coalitions is because lots of people voted for them as a protest against Labour, and in recent times the tory vote in Scotland has completely disappeared. The idea that the Tories and Labour are somehow overly influenced by Scotland is laughable - both of them have demonstrably pissed off Scottish voters, which would be an odd thing to happen if we were being "over represented".

I find it weird that the reaction to Scotland maintaining free prescriptions and university education is to have a go at us, rather than at the politicians that have withdrawn these things across the rest of the country. It's like the attitude is "we want things to be shit for everyone" rather than "we want to improve things for everyone".

As I mentioned before, my opinion on the referendum has genuinely changed multiple times. One of the biggest reasons I can see to vote Yes is that in the event of a No vote there will be a fairly large swell of public opinion that Scotland should be "reigned in" in some manner. The nonsense that's being spouted from some people on this thread makes me think that's a genuine risk.

hungrymark

I'm not sure if Uncle Psychosis and Johnnyurq might be reading a bit of anti-scots stuff where it wasn't intended. Easy chaps.

UnclePsychosis

hungrymark;331140" said:

I'm not sure if Uncle Psychosis and Johnnyurq might be reading a bit of anti-scots stuff where it wasn't intended. Easy chaps.

ICBM was explicitly called "anti-English" a few posts ago, but it's me and Johnny who need to go easy?

erm, Ok.

Drew_TNBD

johnnyurq;331044" said:

Drew_fx said:

On a political level, I feel that most Londoners feel that Scotland has too much pull within Westminister. I feel the rest of England looks upon London as this nasty bit of England where all the evil lurks, but they don't realise that without it the rest of England would be completely fucked.



Scotland may or may not be able to survive as an independent nation. But to me, the history and the lineage and the connection between all of our individual states is pretty important and shouldn't be swept away so easily.



I also feel that there is a large anti-English reactionary element to the Yes camp that I have not seen anyone address.



And you don't have to be Scottish to be anti-English.










Sorry Drew but the facts and numbers don't really give the assertion of too many Scots with disproportionate influence any credence and earlier in this thread I posted some info on that. By all means link me to anything that supports that.

As I said Johnny, "feel" - facts and figures have rarely entered into this debate. It's all about emotion.

PolarityMan

johnnyurq;331033" said:

Same applies to the whole prescriptions, education etc chestnut if you are that pissed off about it  why rant at us start a campaign or any other way to bring pressure to bear mad make it known. Shouting and bawling at folks who didn't vote for it to be that way and are powerless to stop it isn't going to get the job done.

If this was a reaction to my earlier post you have missed the point. It's not about how I feel Scotland having these additional benefits...it's about whether they could be sustained by an independent Scotland. If I was eligible to vote the fact that no-one from the Yes camp has published projected budgets would be a pretty big cause for concern. 

The coverage down here has obviously not been as extensive as in Scotland so perhaps I am missing something but to me...it semms like something that hasn't been addressed by the Yes campaign and none of the Yes voters seem to care...which I find pretty baffling. 

johnnyurq

hungrymark;331140" said:

I'm not sure if Uncle Psychosis and Johnnyurq might be reading a bit of anti-scots stuff where it wasn't intended. Easy chaps.

@hungrymark

With the greatest of respect you know bugger all about the shit I personally (and a lot of my peers too) have had to deal with over the life of this campaign, some of it up close and personal.

Some people, and the frequency and number has grown as the referendum wears on and gotten much nastier. this is my personal experience and not some BS from the net or media.

Unless of course you mean I am specifically meaning with regard to this thread in which case well done for jumping to a conclusion that is not corrrect.

Quite a lot of your countrymen have made it clear that if it is a no then they look forward to sticking it to us and make sure we end up getting less devo and not more, maybe you don't see or hear about this down your way but it is there and in large enough volume to be a worry.

I will say however that there has been some distinctly anti Scottish rhetoric here and at MR oin ocassion, I will say it is not very much but when it does happen it gets tacit approval from some sections of the membership who join in on the fun.To be fair it was more on MR than here but some of the ones who did so are here too.

If we were to do similar we would be flamed to death and run out of town, we already in the past been called anti English several times or too sensitive based on nothing more than lazy stereotypes and media fuelled FUD.

Yes there are some up here who fit the stereotype as you have yours in larger numbers of different groups with largely the same bile for their goals.

Drew_TNBD

I've seen very little anti-Scottish attitude, both on MR and here. Even in this very thread, there has been no anti-Scottish vibes whatsoever. It's just been a discussion.

And saying that there is anti-English sentiment is not being anti-Scottish. Ludicrous connection.

PolarityMan

ICBM said:

PolarityMan said:

losing the political capital and international clout that continual devolution takes away from all countries in the UK.

That taking away of "international clout" is one of the main reasons I will be voting Yes, and the belief that we need it is the exact cause of the problem which I have been talking about! Why do we think we need to impose political objectives on other countries?

I think this may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Asserting political views by force is not actually a major function of government. I can see a number of challenges where that additional international clout is better for both countries. 

Firstly, the conditions in the EU are becoming increasingly less favorable to the UK. At the end of the day both Scotland and England are part of an island and so faces a number of the same conditions around import / export and trade. Whether the UK leaves the EU or not negotiation of free trade and free movement of labor is something better achieved together than apart.

Increasing competition from India and China, followed by rising skill levels in South America is going to erode the advantage that Western Europe (and the US) has in many tertiary industries. While independence would probably benefit London in the short term with respect to increasingly relative investment I think that long term dividing is more likely to be harmful to continued investment in high level skills.

Finally, Norther sea oil or not the UK is a new imported of oil and we're going to see increasing energy dependency on other countries, particularly Russia. The additional international clout of staying together may still not be enough to prevent an energy crisis within the next generation or so. I fear that the associated cost of living impact would make the last recession look insignificant i comparison and tbh I think we need all the political capital we can get to reduce the potential impact.

Fretwired

johnnyurq said:

With the greatest of respect you know bugger all about the shit I personally (and a lot of my peers too) have had to deal with over the life of this campaign, some of it up close and personal.

Anti-English feeling seems to be alive and well north of the border .... ;-)

Anti-English feeling entrenched in Scotland

Police probe 'Anywhere But England' holiday prize competition

Moderator says anti-English bigotry is 'like sectarianism'





:-) :-)

johnnyurq

Drew_fx;331157" said:

johnnyurq;331044" said:Drew_fx said:



On a political level, I feel that most Londoners feel that Scotland has too much pull within Westminister. I feel the rest of England looks upon London as this nasty bit of England where all the evil lurks, but they don't realise that without it the rest of England would be completely fucked.







Scotland may or may not be able to survive as an independent nation. But to me, the history and the lineage and the connection between all of our individual states is pretty important and shouldn't be swept away so easily.







I also feel that there is a large anti-English reactionary element to the Yes camp that I have not seen anyone address.







And you don't have to be Scottish to be anti-English.





















Sorry Drew but the facts and numbers don't really give the assertion of too many Scots with disproportionate influence any credence and earlier in this thread I posted some info on that. By all means link me to anything that supports that.

As I said Johnny, "feel" - facts and figures have rarely entered into this debate. It's all about emotion.

@Drew_fx

Where is the feel you talk about coming from and from whose perspective?

As I have said official figures show that the concept of a huge Scottish mafia with a grip on Westminster is largely baseless, so that would mean to me that this feeling is emanating from donw South.

Agreed there are little meat on the bones of some of the issues from both sides but it concerns me that you seem to be getting less information about the crap and FUD coming from the better together lot, it abated for a while because they realised they were creating more Yes folks as a result.

Of course the Yes lot have engaged in some shit too but much less sophisticated and as a result shown up for it. Whereas the No lot it has been a constant drip of bile misinformation. Some of their more lurid claimes were even debunked by some of the bodies in London who have expertise in that area.

Every day for many months we have been getting this which stokes up the more nationalist element of your compatriots to be twats.

As for feeling I have mentioned on here before that I have had personal experience of abuse and threats of violence form noised up BNP types as well as witnessed these sorts getting bladdered and having a go at people in pubs because of that bloody Nats and fucking jocks getting it all and ruling Westminster. I have seen this with my own eyes and heard it close up.

Now I do not believe anyone here is like that but please realise that this is unfrotunately how things can be as a result of "feelings" not facts.

Also the constant dsimissing of a large swathe of Scots as both anti English and Nats based on feeling is pretty lame indeed. Maybe have a look around and see how many Nats there are then how many are actually genuinely anti English.

My experience is that number will be very low.

The sort of behavior I have mentioned trumps any nonsense from keyboard warriors because it is not surmised threats and shit but real.

Finally as we all get tarred with the Nats/anti English brush for wanting to sack off Westminster how about all the English Nats who have many different such organisations that expouse very similar hateful ideas, we only have the SNP and a few proper Nats.

I don't remember hearing any reports of SNP activists getting involved in actual campaigns of violence and civil disturbances like groups like C18, BNP et al.

How out of order would I or anyone else be if I was to claim that the above groups are largely representative of Engkish folks, it would be dumb to say such a thing and assert it due to feeling.

There may have been isolated stuff in the 70's from the SNP but even that was daft things like vandalising postboxes which is pretty lame and dumb I will grant you.


For a dude that holds empirical evidence and facts in high regard to go on feelings doesn't seem right for how you normally behave, Just saying and no offence meant just like you I have to call it as I see it.

So from where I am standing maybe people need to get our Nats into perspective and in proper context compoared to Nats in other places in the UK.

Drew_TNBD

Dude, you're getting the wrong end of the stick. I'm not saying that I feel the same way. I'm saying that people involved in the debate are relying chiefly on their emotions; and that goes for both sides.

johnnyurq

PolarityMan;331216" said:

johnnyurq;331033" said:

Same applies to the whole prescriptions, education etc chestnut if you are that pissed off about it  why rant at us start a campaign or any other way to bring pressure to bear mad make it known. Shouting and bawling at folks who didn't vote for it to be that way and are powerless to stop it isn't going to get the job done.






If this was a reaction to my earlier post you have missed the point. It's not about how I feel Scotland having these additional benefits...it's about whether they could be sustained by an independent Scotland. If I was eligible to vote the fact that no-one from the Yes camp has published projected budgets would be a pretty big cause for concern. 

The coverage down here has obviously not been as extensive as in Scotland so perhaps I am missing something but to me...it semms like something that hasn't been addressed by the Yes campaign and none of the Yes voters seem to care...which I find pretty baffling. 

@PolarityMan

No not at all it wasn't your post that I was reacting to say and what I said, I would have quoted you if that was the case.

It is a comomon theme that gets rammed down our throats regulalry and since they came into being way back when. As I have said the vast majority here would support England & Wales etc having similar and wish that the whole West Lothian thing would be sorted, remember it would need to be sorted for the other devolved bodies as well becasue the same applies there.

From a lot of the perception here and on general down south I would say you are right that a lot that is going on is either not getting reported or spun differently down your way. Somewhat worrying that would compound some of the more divisive issues.

We get it every blooming day and most emanating form the No lot with most being your classic FUD.

In truth there has been shite flying from both sides and it is difficult filtering it out toget the right information.

The thing is even with these unknowns most Yes leaning folk whilst caring anout it it shows the level of contempt that Westminster is held in.

The info coiming from the No lot is heavily ssupect and they have been caught gilding the lily by silly numbers that were debunked in short order. Yes the Yes lot have engaged in this but being minnows they are shite at the whole spin thing and as a result an open book.

It is a shame that we are at this point but even more so is the way it has and is developing in teerms of rankles between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

For me the financial and economic stuff is very important but if it is about a few quid or even the much touted £500 per annum either direction then basing your decision on that is beyond stupid when most Yes voters are more interested in better governance than we have now.

Like a few on here I have swung back and forth from Yes to No and even undecided but I am now leaning towards a Yes vote due to some of the issues that has arisen over the life of the campaign and discussed here.

I am under no illusions that it will most likely be a No on the day and the aftermath from certain quarters who are being vocal about some payback for wanting to gain Independence.

Fretwired

Drew_fx said:

Dude, you're getting the wrong end of the stick. I'm not saying that I feel the same way. I'm saying that people involved in the debate are relying chiefly on their emotions; and that goes for both sides.

Spot on. Just read that Salmond is going to be really negative in tonight's debate about the union and how Tories will smash the NHS in Scotland. He obviously only has emotion left as he's short on hard facts.

johnnyurq

Fretwired;331250" said:

johnnyurq said:

With the greatest of respect you know bugger all about the shit I personally (and a lot of my peers too) have had to deal with over the life of this campaign, some of it up close and personal.










Anti-English feeling seems to be alive and well north of the border .... ;-)



Anti-English feeling entrenched in Scotland



Police probe 'Anywhere But England' holiday prize competition



Moderator says anti-English bigotry is 'like sectarianism'











:-) :-)

@Fretwired

Well I am not claiming there is none but as the report you linked to and most indicate it is very much a minority which squares with my actual experience of these type of twats.

Or would you like to counter claim that there is no anti Scottish sentiment in England, if so you are full of it. If I could be arsed I could go and cherry pick links to similar the other way around.

Again words versus actual violence and people shouting in your face is no contest, maybe you should pop up for a night out before the vote and see for yourself how some behave here so I guess it would be worse iover the border in pockets of the areas these minorities exist.

But I will not generalise and tar all with that brush.

BTW I hope that thus comment you made was not a serious assertion of yours.

And 2014 is the anniversary of the start of the First World War unless you're in Scotland where it's the anniversary of the battle of Banockburn. Was Robert the Bruce a Scot?

Fairly offensive when you consider that Scots were and are proud of the effort and sacrifice made by the British army in WWI and WWII.

There was far more going on to commomerate the WWI centianial than Bannockburn where in the Central belt there were reenactments similar to the lines that go on for the civil wars and more, plenty English reenactment societies were there too and it was well mannered on the whole.

So what is your point that you are making?

Up in the Highlands any Bannnockburn stuff was pretty low key in contrast to WWI stuff and rightly so too.

You sure you are not a UKIPer these days?

But of course England never ever gets shouty and jingoistic about their famous victories?

For clarity I have no problem with that in any way as long as it doesn't spill over into hatred and violence.

johnnyurq

Drew_fx said:

Dude, you're getting the wrong end of the stick. I'm not saying that I feel the same way. I'm saying that people involved in the debate are relying chiefly on their emotions; and that goes for both sides.

My bad, and yes I can't argue with that as there are some that are like that.

Not sure it is in the numbers being put about by the media and politicians mind.

Fretwired

johnnyurq said:

And 2014 is the anniversary of the start of the First World War unless you're in Scotland where it's the anniversary of the battle of Banockburn. Was Robert the Bruce a Scot?

Fairly offensive when you consider that Scots were and are proud of the effort and sacrifice made by the British army in WWI and WWII.

Calm down that man. Not offensive. My mothers grandfather was a sergeant in the Scots Guards in WW1 and I have his medals so I'm well aware of the sacrifice made by Scots soldiers. My point was Salmond has chosen to push Banockburn rather than the start of WW1 as it was a victory against the English whereas WW1 was a victory for the union and its empire against a common enemy.

And if you think that's offensive try this:

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/6572-scottish-labour-mp-claims-scots-celebrate-bannockburn-because-english-were-murdered

This is the trouble with nationalism be it the SNP or the BNP. It aims to divide people.

johnnyurq

Drew_fx;331230" said:

I've seen very little anti-Scottish attitude, both on MR and here. Even in this very thread, there has been no anti-Scottish vibes whatsoever. It's just been a discussion.



And saying that there is anti-English sentiment is not being anti-Scottish. Ludicrous connection.

Drew I have said there was some minimal stuff and also said to be fair it was more on MR than here.

Before I stopped lurking at MR ( and after) I saw a few threads which had such sentiment and the unfortunates trying to debate it got rounded on and basically flamed adding to the notion there was "some" anti Scottish behaviour tacitly agreed with and enhanced by those who weighed in with bile rather than anything useful or helpful.

You can say it isn't so if you wish but it doesn't make it so it never happened. But as I have said it is less so here with it being more a case just of believing the hype out there rather than out and out anti Scottish sentiment.

That last bit I am pretty certain I never said beyond asserting that there are pockets of anti whoever all over the UK but it is not representative of the larger majority in my view.

johnnyurq

Fretwired said:

johnnyurq said:

And 2014 is the anniversary of the start of the First World War unless you're in Scotland where it's the anniversary of the battle of Banockburn. Was Robert the Bruce a Scot?

Fairly offensive when you consider that Scots were and are proud of the effort and sacrifice made by the British army in WWI and WWII.

Calm down that man. Not offensive. My mothers grandfather was a sergeant in the Scots Guards in WW1 and I have his medals so I'm well aware of the sacrifice made by Scots soldiers. My point was Salmond has chosen to push Banockburn rather than the start of WW1 as it was a victory against the English whereas WW1 was a victory for the union and its empire against a common enemy.

And if you think that's offensive try this:

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/6572-scottish-labour-mp-claims-scots-celebrate-bannockburn-because-english-were-murdered

This is the trouble with nationalism be it the SNP or the BNP. It aims to divide people.

For the final time I am not a Nat and what you linked to is offensive but then your assertion that in Scotland we glorified Bannockburn and paid no heed to WWI is also offensive for different reasons.

Salmond, Salmond fucking Salmond of course we all worship at the hem of his garment and hang on his every word. We know when he is being contentious and deride him for it too (check our press and political fora). Again with the offensive notion that we are too dumb to see him for what he is. I would still have him over Cameron and the vast majority of Westminster in any case

Wee Eck is no perfect but he is harmless compared to Dave, Miliband and Co

But his arse will be out the door not long after a Yes in any case for a variety of reasons, maybe more so after a No.

That is like saying most or all voters in England and Wales are similar and think Cameron. MIliband and Clegg are heroes to be followed and agreed with. It is just lazy and lame dude.

If you hadn't generalised so badly you may have had a point but once again you choose to lump us all in together, so I am afraid I have to call offensive.

Some of the stuff coming from English Nats and even Welsh nats of old were no less horrible and disgusting hatred than what you linked to and remember it may not be totally as reported.

No one in their right mind would do anything other than denounce that sort of shit.

So how abuot debating rather than what sometimes seems like trolling.

PolarityMan

johnnyurq;331275" said:

I am under no illusions that it will most likely be a No on the day and the aftermath from certain quarters who are being vocal about some payback for wanting to gain Independence.

I dunno...I've seen a massive swing amongst my facebook friends over the last 2-3 weeks.

johnnyurq

Yes it is a difficult one to call for certain but received wisdom is that an awful lot of female voters are in the no camp and may very well swing it regardless.

Being more pragmatic about household budgets and other related matters I can see this being the case.

The culture in Scotland since many years in the large majority of homes it is the women holding the purse strings for the household budget and such.

PLus an awful lot of polls since a year or so seem to support this assertion and the gap was about 17 to 20% difference for between the sexes. Plus the polls also showed that women were nore risk averse with regard to the Indyref.

There was a good documentary about it wiht vox pops as well as stats from polls etc.

I presume these many doccies (some good some bad) we are being lambasted with are not being shown South of the border.

They even had Janet-Street Porter testing her assertion that we were indeed anti English n her view. For the record she concluded that it wasn't as she had thought and although there were some who played to the stereotype (as they do everywhere) as a rule it wasn't the case. Strange coming from a cynical old trout like her.

Not sure if the 16 year olds will vote as the SNP would wish because they seem to be much more conservative (in attitude, not so much Tory voters) in their approach to taking a risk on a Yes. Because in truth it is a risk but possibly a good risk, hopefully if it happens.

But I guess we will see very soon and it cannot be over soon enough for me, definite Indyref fatigue here. Too bloody long a lead up in my view which allowed a lot negative of stuff to ferment on both sides of the debate with very little actual substance from either side.