Scottish Referendum question(s)

Fretwired

ICBM said:

I have decided to vote Yes.

Because I can no longer stomach the posturing of Cameron over Iraq and Syria, the possibility that more British soldiers (including Scots) will be sent to interfere in a war the Westminster government helped create with further meddling in a part of the world where Western interference has never done anything but cause more trouble, and the probability that May will use it to bring in yet more arbitrary police powers and further chisel away at civil liberties.

A problem caused by a Scot who lied his way to war with a dodgy dossier. I'm not a fan of Cameron but I think your criticism is a little unjust as he's inherited this mess caused by Blair and Labour.

I'm hoping for a yes vote so England doesn't have to be ruled by the likes of Blair and Brown. I think it's time for a divorce as this issue won't go away.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

A problem caused by a Scot who lied his way to war with a dodgy dossier. I'm not a fan of Cameron but I think your criticism is a little unjust as he's inherited this mess caused by Blair and Labour.

Wrong. The problem in Iraq was originally caused under the Thatcher government - it was then that the UK supplied Saddam with arms as a means to attack our 'enemy' Iran, then when he got too big for his boots and invaded Kuwait, we failed to finish the job and get rid of him at the time. That led directly to where we are now - yes, via Blair, but also more directly via Cameron supporting the rebels in Syria.

That is if you don't go back to where it all really started in the 1920s when the the "state" of Iraq was artificially created. The West has been meddling in the Middle East ever since and I can't think of one instance where it has proved beneficial. We've done the same in Egypt and Libya. It really is time to stop poking our noses in places we don't understand and are not wanted.

I believe an independent Scotland would do that.

Drew_TNBD

Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, and your indefatigability [to Saddam Hussein] - George Galloway

Rox

But what would a Yes vote do to the price of IRN BRU south of the border?

This could have an impact on my fiscal well-being.

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, and your indefatigability [to Saddam Hussein] - George Galloway

Who is now an MP in England, and you're welcome to him!

He's quite a nutcase, and one of those dangerous ones who says a lot of things which appear to nearly make sense. (Not that one, obviously…)

Rox said:

But what would a Yes vote do to the price of IRN BRU south of the border?

This could have an impact on my fiscal well-being.

Just increase your solidarity with the Scottish people by switching to Buckfast. (Made in England)

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

Drew_fx said:

Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, and your indefatigability [to Saddam Hussein] - George Galloway

Who is now an MP in England, and you're welcome to him!

Ahh, the old 'no true Scotsman'

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

A problem caused by a Scot who lied his way to war with a dodgy dossier. I'm not a fan of Cameron but I think your criticism is a little unjust as he's inherited this mess caused by Blair and Labour.

Wrong. The problem in Iraq was originally caused under the Thatcher government - it was then that the UK supplied Saddam with arms as a means to attack our 'enemy' Iran, then when he got too big for his boots and invaded Kuwait, we failed to finish the job and get rid of him at the time. That led directly to where we are now - yes, via Blair, but also more directly via Cameron supporting the rebels in Syria.

That's laughable. Under Saddam Iraq was an al-Qaida free zone and the British, French, US and Russians sold him arms as he was an ally against Iran which, don't forget, exported the religious extremism. Had Saddam still be in power then there wouldn't have been the power vacuum that's seen ISIS flourish. Blair always looks after number one. He's a liar and a war criminal and much of the mess we're in is of his making. He should be on trial in the Hague.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/07/tony-blair-war-crimes-prosecuted-eel-like-boris-johnson

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Under Saddam Iraq was an al-Qaida free zone and the British, French, US and Russians sold him arms as he was an ally against Iran which, don't forget, exported the religious extremism. Had Saddam still be in power then there wouldn't have been the power vacuum that's seen ISIS flourish. Blair always looks after number one. He's a liar and a war criminal and much of the mess we're in is of his making. He should be on trial in the Hague.

I don't disagree with that, but to ignore the role played by the Thatcher government in arming Saddam is simply wrong. For what it's worth my father worked for the company which later became Matrix Churchill, so I do have some knowledge of that.

It's also directly Cameron's responsibility that we supported the rebels in Syria, not Blair's.

My exact point is that both are essentially the same problem - by trying to support one side against what is currently perceived to be an "enemy", we cause more trouble for not only everyone in the region but also ourselves than if we had just not interfered in the first place. This kind of thing has backfired time and time again. Not only that, it inspires anti-UK terrorism which the government here then uses to justify repressive legislation.

I'd prefer not to be part of that.

In any case, Blair is no more "Scottish" than Cameron if you want to get trivial about it.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

In any case, Blair is no more "Scottish" than Cameron if you want to get trivial about it.

What? Blair was born in Edinburgh and boarded at Fettes College. What do you have to do to be called Scottish if being born and educated there doesn't count.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

What? Blair was born in Edinburgh and boarded at Fettes College. What do you have to do to be called Scottish if being born and educated there doesn't count.

Blair's father was English.

Cameron's father was Scottish.

It's a trivial argument anyway - both are English politicians through and through.

holnrew

I feel like Scottish independence would be short lived. 

Drew_TNBD

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

In any case, Blair is no more "Scottish" than Cameron if you want to get trivial about it.

What do you have to do to be called Scottish if being born and educated there doesn't count.

I think that's a very worthwhile question. The Yes camp constantly pull the "they're not real Scots" thing in a variety of ways.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

What? Blair was born in Edinburgh and boarded at Fettes College. What do you have to do to be called Scottish if being born and educated there doesn't count.

Blair's father was English.

Cameron's father was Scottish.

It's a trivial argument anyway - both are English politicians through and through.

What do you have to do to be Scottish?

Blair senior was fostered out to a family in Glasgow when a baby. He grew up in Scotland, went to school in Scotland and saw himself as a Scot.

ICBM

Fretwired said:

What do you have to do to be Scottish?

Live here would be a start.

I grew up and was educated in England but I chose to make myself a Scot. Blair did the opposite, and if he thought of himself as a Scot, I don't know many people here who did even when he was popular. He was an MP in an English seat and his government was voted into power by English voters more than Scots - his majority in the first two elections was greater than the entire number of seats in Scotland. Blaming the things he (or even Gordon Brown) did wrong on his being "Scottish" is sadly typical of the English attitude to Scotland. It has nothing to do with it.

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

Blaming the things he (or even Gordon Brown) did wrong on his being "Scottish" is sadly typical of the English attitude to Scotland.

It really really REALLY isn't.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Blair was an MP in an English seat and his government was voted into power by English voters more than Scots - his majority in the first two elections was greater than the entire number of seats in Scotland. Blaming the things he (or even Gordon Brown) did wrong on his being "Scottish" is sadly typical of the English attitude to Scotland. It has nothing to do with it.

So it's OK for you and the other Scottish Nats to be anti-English but it doesn't cut both ways. The Labour Party in London under Blair had an over representation of Scots MPs which affected policy. Blair started the process of privatising the English NHS and introducing university fees in England with the help of Scottish MPs [without their support this wouldn't have happened]. Salmond decided against university fees unless you're an English student.

And one of your reasons for voting yes is to stop Cameron and the Tories having power over Scotland. So in truth it's an anti-English stance which is typical of the Nats. We don't even get a vote in England even though it will affect us. There are people in England who see themselves as Scottish who won't get a vote. 

Personally I think this sort of nationalism is antiquated - you can't even define what makes someone a Scot. In England immigration has created diversity and a more interesting culture. I'm English but so what? My wife's from Africa via Scotland my parents are from Wales and Scotland.

And 2014 is the anniversary of the start of the First World War unless you're in Scotland where it's the anniversary of the battle of Banockburn. Was Robert the Bruce a Scot?

ICBM

I am not a Scottish Nat, and I'm not anti-English.

Unfortunately your posts are the proof that Drew is wrong.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Unfortunately your posts are the proof that Drew is wrong.

How so?

ICBM

Fretwired said:

How so?

Fretwired said:

A problem caused by a Scot who lied his way to war with a dodgy dossier.

And so on.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Fretwired said:

How so?

Fretwired said:

A problem caused by a Scot who lied his way to war with a dodgy dossier.

And so on.

I was just winding you up a little based on your comments about Cameron. As I said they cut both ways .. :-)