Scottish Referendum question(s)

ICBM

Go and read my posts again and you will not see one reference to Cameron or his government as English, apart from to say that both he and Blair are English politicians. Every post you've made has proved my point.

PolarityMan

Depressingly I'm seeing a large number of people, especially on my facebook, starting to turn to the yes camp.

 While a protest vote against the various wars seems appealing on a reactionary level I haven't seen any real discussion on the day to day economics.  

I have my doubts that Scotland will end up with all of the north easy oil income and I have even more doubts that Scotland will get the currency.

Right now Scotland enjoys many benefits that England does not:  

Free dental care 

No tuition fees 

No prescription charges

 Free hospital parking etc. 

I do wonder if these could be maintained under independence....has any party supporting the yes campaign even floated a projected budget? 

My suspicion is that an independent Scotland will result in spending billions both sides of the border followed by a steady decline into bankruptcy as a consequence of trade union politics. This will finally result in a second bailout with Scotland rejoining the Uk within 50 years.

 I think that opening the vote to 16 year olds was a cynical attempt to push through an ill thought out proposal.

I say all this as someone born and educated in Scotland and with significant amount family there ( I actually have a family tartan believe it or not ). 

As someone living in the South east I am happier subsidizing benefits Scotland receives that England doesn't than losing the political capital and international clout that continual devolution takes away from all countries in the UK.

PolarityMan

Wtf there were kine breaks in there I promise.will fix it up on PC later.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Go and read my posts again and you will not see one reference to Cameron or his government as English, apart from to say that both he and Blair are English politicians. Every post you've made has proved my point.

By implication ... Cameron is a Tory and the Tory Party is an English party as it has a single Scottish seat and a handful of Welsh seats. It's an argument the Nats use. It's been used in my house by a relative who is voting yes .. and apparently I'm the worst sort of Englishman .. born in London ..  :-)

Being serious for a moment the arguments the Nats use about Westminster are valid for a lot of people in northern England who also feel disinfranchised. Maybe the answer is more devolved power to all the regions in the UK and leave Westminster to run defence, foreign policy and so forth.

It's good to be able to have a civil debate and a bit of banter .. :-)

hungrymark

From where I'm sitting Fret and Drew seem to have a point.

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

losing the political capital and international clout that continual devolution takes away from all countries in the UK.

That taking away of "international clout" is one of the main reasons I will be voting Yes, and the belief that we need it is the exact cause of the problem which I have been talking about! Why do we think we need to impose political objectives on other countries?

Fretwired said:

By implication ... Cameron is a Tory and the Tory Party is an English party as it has a single Scottish seat and a handful of Welsh seats. It's an argument the Nats use.

That is not an argument I've ever used. It's not about "Scotland vs England" it's about the imposition of a UK government most of us don't really agree with on everyone. Scotland now has an opportunity to reject that… perhaps England should too.

Fretwired said:

Being serious for a moment the arguments the Nats use about Westminster are valid for a lot of people in northern England who also feel disinfranchised. Maybe the answer is more devolved power to all the regions in the UK and leave Westminster to run defence, foreign policy and so forth.

I agree. I would - and always have - like to see a fully-devolved UK with all four nations equally represented, or possibly more than four if the regions of England were devolved. I would also like to see a common defence and foreign policy, but only if it was achieved by consensus and not by the UK government simply dictating policy to the rest.

That's exactly why I have changed my mind. Previously I was an "undecided no". The currency issue seemed the most important, I even said it was the only thing that mattered. It isn't, it's being able to decide for ourselves what our place in the world is, and having a fundamental disagreement with the total failure to learn lessons from the past, which the UK government seems to be unable to.

Fretwired said:

and apparently I'm the worst sort of Englishman .. born in London ..  :-)

We have something in common then .

holnrew

Fretwired said: 

Being serious for a moment the arguments the Nats use about Westminster are valid for a lot of people in northern England who also feel disinfranchised. 

And the South West, perhaps more so because it often gets lumped in with "The South" when people are complaining about things more pertinent to the South East and M4 corridor.

Bogwhoppit

holnrew said:

And the South West,.

Cornwall has never been formally incorporated into England via an Act of Union. Based on that, the Cornish have a right to autonomy.

 

I say give them the vote and in return we get free pastys.

UnclePsychosis

"the English should get a vote on Scotland leaving the union"

"the French should get a vote on the UK leaving the European Union"

I look forward to the likes of Fretwired trying to square that particular circle.

Fretwired

UnclePsychosis said:

"the English should get a vote on Scotland leaving the union"

"the French should get a vote on the UK leaving the European Union"

I look forward to the likes of Fretwired trying to square that particular circle.

Simple: Scotland leaving the union will affect England. Our economies are integrated - Scotland owes a share of the UK debt. We share a currency .. etc. I'm English yet my pension fund is run from Scotland by a Scottish bank so it affects me personally. I don't think many people have thought this through .. even ICBM says he'll take a risk on the currency. Hell that's no way to run a country.

The French leaving the EU statement is irrelevant.

Circle squared.

UnclePsychosis

Interesting that @icbm has changed his opinion on the whole thing.

Personally I've swung from no to yes and back to undecided. Can't have been too many elections where people have genuinely changed their opinions.

I find it hard to understand people from England blaming Scotland for Brown and Blair. In 1997 every single voter in Scotland could have voted Tory and Blair would still have had a majority of well over fifty. (his majority was about 180 and Scotland only has 60 seats). Blair and Brown got into power because voters across England (and the rest of the UK) voted for them in huge numbers.

Fretwired

UnclePsychosis said:

Interesting that @icbm has changed his opinion on the whole thing.

Personally I've swung from no to yes and back to undecided. Can't have been too many elections where people have genuinely changed their opinions.

I find it hard to understand people from England blaming Scotland for Brown and Blair. In 1997 every single voter in Scotland could have voted Tory and Blair would still have had a majority of well over fifty. (his majority was about 180 and Scotland only has 60 seats). Blair and Brown got into power because voters across England (and the rest of the UK) voted for them in huge numbers.

I don't think people in England blame Scotland for Brown and Blair - that was me having some fun with ICBM. There are lots of people in England who did well under Tony Blair and wish he was back in charge of the Labour Party. However I think he has questions to answer over the Iraq war and I do see him as a war monger. Thatcher didn't want to invade Iraq after the first Gulf war as she didn't want Britain embroiled in a log term war keeping the peace. Blair wanted his Falklands moment. And after he left power he seemed to quickly get highly paid jobs with those organisations that gained from the war. There are questions that need answering.

UnclePsychosis

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair/11052965/Tony-Blair-gives-Kazakhstans-autocratic-president-tips-on-how-to-defend-a-massacre.html

Tony Blair's latest escapade. Charming man.

Drew_TNBD

On a political level, I feel that most Londoners feel that Scotland has too much pull within Westminister. I feel the rest of England looks upon London as this nasty bit of England where all the evil lurks, but they don't realise that without it the rest of England would be completely fucked.

Scotland may or may not be able to survive as an independent nation. But to me, the history and the lineage and the connection between all of our individual states is pretty important and shouldn't be swept away so easily.

I also feel that there is a large anti-English reactionary element to the Yes camp that I have not seen anyone address.

And you don't have to be Scottish to be anti-English.

johnnyurq

Boy what a fun read. 

A few observations.

Firstly Galloway is a cock and yes he may be Scottish but does not speak for us in fact nor did Blair and Brown. But like any village we reserve the right to banish the village idiots, I reckon all areas of the UK are similar with their insufferable cockends.

Having a devolved parliament by definition they sort of speak for us but still not everyone and the Scottish, Welsh and NI MP's choosing to sit in Westminster from our perspective are every bit as much the problem as any Tories, Scots or whatever.

I voted for Labour under Blair until it was clear we we were stitched up and have long since seen him as the Bastard child of Thatcher and her ilk, most I know feel the same and wish he was brought to book for all his shit. Hopefully that report if it ever comes out will at the very least discredit him for what he is.

I agree with @ICBM that voting Yes seems to be the only chance we will get in our lifetime to try for a better approach, hopefully.

Sadly it means relations have and will get strained for a while and truly if it was possible to get the change without a "divorce" so much the better.

What seems to be forgotten is that we are getting a whole lot of at times uninformed shit aimed at us for a myriad of ills we never voted for or can do anything about. Some of it is extremely hateful and nkw beginning to get petty.

The fact is that whilst we have no idea what your experience is down your way the same is true in reverse,judgements are being made based on lazy stereotypes and media BS.

As an example if Scots were to adjudge every English person the same as the vocal minorities of BNP, NF or even UKIP and the worse nutters.

How offensive would that be?

Regarding the whole Scots saving Labour thing comes up time and again and as yet the figures I have seen do not support this at all for Elections bar the 2010 Election where the Tories would have gotten a majority so no coalition.

Here is a link and most sources largely agree with these figures.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

As for the more thorny issue of Westminster Scots MPs voting in only English matters well yes it should nit happen we agree so how is it our fault as many assert, it isn't and why not start a campaign to finally resolve the West Lothian question bearing in mind it also applies to the other devolved parliaments.

We can do bigger all to bring about that change and the bast majority would vote with you to sort it, sadly the main parties have no will to do so which harks back to why we see Westminster as a poisoned chalice unlikely to reform in any meaningful way.

And yes a lot of the UK will feel similarly for the same or similar reasons, why not make that known and again I reckon scots would stand beside you.

Same applies to the whole prescriptions, education etc chestnut if you are that pissed off about it  why rant at us start a campaign or any other way to bring pressure to bear ma

johnnyurq

Had to split it.

Same applies to the whole prescriptions, education etc chestnut if you are that pissed off about it  why rant at us start a campaign or any other way to bring pressure to bear mad make it known. Shouting and bawling at folks who didn't vote for it to be that way and are powerless to stop it isn't going to get the job done.

We would be happy for you to have the same facilities and whether it was just Scotland or the whole UK if you want it bad enough then it can be done but realising that something else may have to give. It is all about priorities and for me if paying a bit more tax makes that happen then so be it. Of course YMMV and that is your right but we cannot have it all, you makes your vote and live with the consequences.

As for the we don't get a vote thing that is how it should be because if the roles were reversed for any other UK home nation I would not be comfortable having a vote when I know nothing of that area or its politics. It would be for that place to decide.

As I have said in any case it looks as it always has looked from the start that it will be a no and frankly I dread to think what the aftermath will be based on recent shit coming from other parts of the UK, which may end up solidifying the Yes votes.

Fuck me I will be glad when it is all over for good or bad.

Drew_TNBD

I think the bottom line is that our political class just does not represent your common persons. They're ALL career politicians, because this is what the Oxbridge crowd are essentially about.

I think this is true regardless of English, Welsh, Scottish, or Irish. Your political representatives very rarely represent you.

But people lap the memetic shit up off the floor like it was raspberry sundae! There is a basic language that you can use to get people fighting your corner, and they're all up to the same old bag of tricks. It's all bullshit. They don't want to improve your country at all, they just want to make it easier for them to develop connections of their own so that they can improve their financial and career prospects... and you and your family's needs can go take a flying fuck.

Drew_TNBD

johnnyurq

Drew_fx said:

On a political level, I feel that most Londoners feel that Scotland has too much pull within Westminister. I feel the rest of England looks upon London as this nasty bit of England where all the evil lurks, but they don't realise that without it the rest of England would be completely fucked.

Scotland may or may not be able to survive as an independent nation. But to me, the history and the lineage and the connection between all of our individual states is pretty important and shouldn't be swept away so easily.

I also feel that there is a large anti-English reactionary element to the Yes camp that I have not seen anyone address.

And you don't have to be Scottish to be anti-English.

Sorry Drew but the facts and numbers don't really give the assertion of too many Scots with disproportionate influence any credence and earlier in this thread I posted some info on that. By all means link me to anything that supports that.

The figures show that roughly 10 % of Westminster's MPs give or take at each election. There was a small spike in Blair's time and I believe it was about 70 out of > 600 at the time. as we represent about 10% of the UK or seems about right to me.

Of course during the Tory years in the 80's and 90's you could argue we were under represented by the same logic you are using.

Honestly I agree with you that it is lamentable that the shared heritage and culture etc will be diminished somewhat but in the same breath I would hope and can se no reason why we cannot cooperate and start a new set of different ways of continuing some of those legacies.

To say that the yes camp have a large anti English element is quite silly because most are not even Nats, I am certainly not and most I know are not either if the above.

It is as silly saying everyone wanting out of the EU are mainly xenophobic and therefore BNP/NF/UKIP racists.

To be perfectly honest during this whole affair I would say there is far more anti Scots sentiment which has grown in recent months and weeks. Some of it pretty nasty indeed. It runs both ways and the hating we are getting at the moment is not even to do with the core issues but old historical crap that some have a cob on about.

I agree anti English or anti Scottish sentiment is not exclusive to the respective countries but I have to say in the exchange of it at the moment more is coming in to us that we are exporting from our slavering Nats. I am afraid that is my experience to date.

There are parts of Scotland and England I have been to that they hate everyone including their compatriots LOL. 

I guess at least they are equal opportunities haters, how very PC.

  

johnnyurq

Drew_fx said:

I think the bottom line is that our political class just does not represent your common persons. They're ALL career politicians, because this is what the Oxbridge crowd are essentially about.

I think this is true regardless of English, Welsh, Scottish, or Irish. Your political representatives very rarely represent you.

But people lap the memetic shit up off the floor like it was raspberry sundae! There is a basic language that you can use to get people fighting your corner, and they're all up to the same old bag of tricks. It's all bullshit. They don't want to improve your country at all, they just want to make it easier for them to develop connections of their own so that they can improve their financial and career prospects... and you and your family's needs can go take a flying fuck.

Yes I think that is the long and short of it I reckon and if we could all agree on a better way forward then I doubt we would be having a referendum at all.

Sadly it suits the political pros you mention to have us all at each others throats and divided.

Also there is an element of we get the government we deserve for allowing them to pull the wool over our eyes and responding to base things like what is in it for me and hating on people because they are different. 

This last few years this for my money has been the worst I can remember for social divides to be heightened and we are all complicit to one degree or another.