Scottish Referendum question(s)

ICBM

UnclePsychosis said:

People have really fallen for the "no plan B" line, haven't they?

If you bother to read the white paper and not just the daily papers then several "plan B"s are given. They are, in rough order;

Currency union
Use the pound anyway
Float own currency
Euro

The problem is that "use the pound anyway" is by far the worst of the options, so having it as a fallback position if you don't get a currency union is idiotic and won't be believed - hence it also makes the first choice itself less credible because the secondary position isn't, and Salmond can't admit that, so he has to ignore the question. He has made a fundamental mistake and set the policy up as an easy target - both for the No campaign and for the London government if there is a Yes vote… they will simply call his bluff. They absolutely can deny a currency union, and they will if there's slightest political advantage in doing so.

To paraphrase Bill Clinton - it's the currency, stupid… and it always has been. Every other question is secondary, and Darling is right that to have not worked this out with only six weeks to go is madness.

chillidoggy

Can Salmond speak Gaelic?

ICBM

chillidoggy said:

Can Salmond speak Gaelic?

Not sure - I don't think so.

I was interested to discover that when I was on Lewis last month, there were quite a few people who used it as their first language - I heard workers speaking to each other in it. I had assumed it no longer was for anyone.

UnclePsychosis

ICBM said:

the problem is that "use the pound anyway" is by far the worst of the options, so having it as a fallback position if you don't get a currency union is idiotic and won't be believed - hence it also makes the first choice itself less credible because the secondary position isn't, and Salmond can't admit that, 

I didn't necessarily say I agreed with them as policies

 I was just pointing out that the "there is no Plan B" line is a lie. By all means disagree with the economic policy, but anytime anyone says "there is no plan B" what they really mean is "I'm either misinformed or being disingenuous".  There are several "Plan B" options but the realities of modern politics mean that Yes have to (in the media at least) stick to their guns on their first choice. 

Its crap, but that is the political world we live in. Its not a coincidence that all of the most interesting debate (on both sides) has come from those who are not affiliated to political parties. 

DiscoStu

Here are Plans A - E, from the fiscal report Salmond referenced during the debate.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10444562_10152443783429597_8587730452049992281_n.jpg

UnclePsychosis

Also, whilst we're on the subject. 

"I was going to vote Yes, because I'm concerned about representative democracy and what will happen as our political parties lurch towards an anti-EU, anti-immigration UKIP driven agenda, but now that I know it'll make June Sarpong and Eddie Izzard a little bit sad I think I'll vote No"

and

"I was going to vote No, because I don't think there is a credible currency option for an independent Scotland, but now that Alan Cumming has a wee Yes badge on his twitter profile I think I'll vote for them"

said absolutely no-one. Ever. FFS.

PS whoever asked David Starkey to sign a love letter to Scotland has a great sense of humour.  

EricTheWeary

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

Can Salmond speak Gaelic?

Not sure - I don't think so.

I was interested to discover that when I was on Lewis last month, there were quite a few people who used it as their first language - I heard workers speaking to each other in it. I had assumed it no longer was for anyone.

in my book ( I know it's fiction but I'm assuming it was researched) people now in their thirties would have had Gaelic as a first language on Lewis.

hungrymark

Problem is if Scotland vote yes and refuse to take on their share of the debt it would play merry hell with their credit rating.

chrispy108

UnclePsychosis said:

Of course, if Better Together really were keen on facts and certainties then they'd have sat down and prenegotiated everything so that people were truly informed on exactly what they were voting for. Instead they decided that sowing doubt and fear was going to be their main tactic. I'd like to send them a nice big "f**k you" just for that. Can't have an informed electorate, can we?

Obviously I can see where the desire for solid information comes from, but it's just completely unrealistic to expect that to be done.

There's an enormous list of things to be negotiated, it'll take years, and to expect that to be done hypothetically is just impossible.

johnnyurq

Whatever Salmond says it would be a big mistake on many levels to follow through on a default if no pound. I think he is blustering and bluffing in any case.

Pretty much everyone (apart from silly fuckers) I have spoken to wouldn't countenance a default for various reasons, in fact I can only think of one or two eejits that would be happy with it.

If it was a yes I am with Jim Sillars either our own currency or the Euro, maybe. If a currency union miraculously became an option so be it, if not no drama.

As far as I know AS doesn't speak Gaelic but has supported its growth.

Gaelic was dwindling badly and in the 70's in primary school we got some Gaelic tuition to try and offset this which never worked because almost all dropped it as soon as possible (primary 3).

The younger Islanders and West Coast folks lost interest in it and the parents were very concerned so a campaign and body was set up.

When I was a lad there was in the region of 20,000 or less (and dwindling) speaking Gaelic and nowadays it is thought to be over 60.000 and rising.

In the 80's, 90's and 00's this body secured grants and funding and really pushed Gaelic quite aggressively (inc getting dual language road signs) and it worked because the number of Gaelic speakers has risen a fair bit since then. We even have a dedicated Gaelic school which was oversubscribed before it even opened and is in need of expansion.

Mine and generations above and below had no real interest in learning Gaelic, despite my father and uncles being native Gaelic speakers being from Skye and the West Coast.

It used to be that the biggest collection of Gealic speakers was in Partick in Glasgow, it is like a Gaelic/tcheuchter ghetto LOL. No offence Gaelic type dudes.

The park bar quite often had members of Runrig and Wolfstone among others could be seen battering out a mix of Gaelic folk/trad stuff and some "Jock Rock" too.

So it went from a dwindling language to being turned around by the semi QUANGO come pressure group.

Remember though you do not speak the Gaelic you "have" the Gaelic.

Altogether now.

Agus neeps n tatties, mattress, duvet, shaver. Battery, battery agus Peter Campbell agus Eden Court.

There you go some cod Gaelic to bandy about if in the islands.

Only jesting Gaels.

Don't know about you guys but I will be very happy when it is all over for good or ill.

I still say it will be a fairly emphatic no based on what I am seeing and hearing from people up here and traditionally the Highlands and Islands has been the most solid support for any Independence referendum.

Unless the lowlands have solidified their support for a yes then no it is.

As some have said though the wild card is the turn out on the day and I would hate the result to be partly down to a low turnout. I would hope for a large turnout so whatever the result it is a proper and unequivocal as possible. 

johnnyurq

ESBlonde said:

Yes I wasn't so much making oil the issue, many in the highlands and islands feel the lowlands and Edinburgh in particular (if all accounts I've read are to be believed) don't work for their best interests. What if those people feel AS and the Scottish parliament only look after the big cities but not the people living more traditional lives. If they want separation will Alex still be as fervent on the subject as he is now? I suspect not and that appears to be one of the fundamental flaws. That and the fact that any state/nation/society has a state of ascendency and decadency (relative to other nations), so what happens when the tables turn? The British empire really ruled the waves a century ago, 50 Years ago it was the USA and next it will be China? or some other unknown nation. Taking a short term 'smash and gram' view is what is damaging the United Kingdom already, AS proposes to do just that but claim a victory.

But then I don't get to vote on the breakup of my nation.

@ESBlonde

That used to be the case years ago and I remember it being the perception and in some cases with some justification as some of our businesses and public sector stuff was centralised to Edinburgh and Glasgow to a lesser extent. 

Many jobs were lost at a time when we were (as were most) suffering under Thatcher's government so I think any town or city having that going on would feel a bit hard done by.

But that was the 70's and 80's and by the 90's things had changed as did attitudes and after Devo and Holyrood relocating SNH and others up here it became a non issue.

Although historically there always has been differences between the Highlands and Lowlands as far as who to support in times if war. But that is as much to do with the Highlands being remote and Edinburgh/Central Belt being more in the line of fire and therefore liable to a sacking.

I only remember it being grumblings rather than proper animosity and thankfully seems to be largely forgotten.

I did joke about us ceding from Scotland in the event of Holyrood becoming as fucked up as Westminster but I can't see it ever.

Of course if the above happens and Edinburgh/Central belt becomes Scotland's London (not in the Capital sense) who knows LOL.

I am certain it will be the status quo the day after the vote, especially with the enticing carrot of more Devo and the like.

Thank goodness it is nearly over, been a long and sometimes grouchy process IMO.

Clarky

Fretwired said:

It's all beginning to get a bit nasty ...

Mr Salmond claims that Westminster would have to respect the “sovereign will” of the Scottish people to keep the pound despite it becoming the parliament of a different country if there is a Yes vote.

He repeated his threat that a separate Scotland would refuse to accept its share of the UK’s national debt unless a currency union was forthcoming.

UK party leaders at next year’s general election would come under irresistible pressure from voters south of the Border to accept a deal on the pound rather than lose out on billions of pounds of debt repayments, he claimed.

“It is Scotland's pound. It doesn't belong to George Osborne, it doesn't belong to Ed Balls. It's Scotland's pound and we are keeping it."

If the Scots don't get the pound then they can blame the selfish English bastards sout of the border. If Salmond reneges on Scotlands debt I wouldn't rate his chances of borrowing money .. Moody's would have to create a new category to rate Scotland's credit worthiness. I'll be glad when this is all over although I suspect this will rumble on for years and years ...

Salmond's a tosser but then so is Cameron. As Private Fraser used to say ..."we're doomed ... doomed"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11018994/Alex-Salmond-declares-its-our-pound-and-were-keeping-it.html

this proves to me that Salmond wants his cake and eat it - at the expense of everyone else..

he is therefore a complete cunt

Clarky

ICBM said:

chillidoggy said:

Can Salmond speak Gaelic?

Not sure - I don't think so.

I was interested to discover that when I was on Lewis last month, there were quite a few people who used it as their first language - I heard workers speaking to each other in it. I had assumed it no longer was for anyone.

I think that's really cool..
I'd love to be able to speak Gaelic and Welsh..

Clarky

putting aside all the referendum shite for a mo..

when you look at it.. the cultural mix, geography, geology, loads of other ollogies, history, languages/dialects, music / arts etc of these islands.. not just England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.. but all the regions, islands and everything etc.

The UK as a whole is so unique.. so rich in so many ways

and despite it's imperfections and petty regional rivalries and bullshit..

I 100% with my whole heart think it's an absolutely fkn awesome place...

ESBlonde

Clarky said:

putting aside all the referendum shite for a mo..

when you look at it.. the cultural mix, geography, geology, loads of other ollogies, history, languages/dialects, music / arts etc of these islands.. not just England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.. but all the regions, islands and everything etc.

The UK as a whole is so unique.. so rich in so many ways

and despite it's imperfections and petty regional rivalries and bullshit..

I 100% with my whole heart think it's an absolutely fkn awesome place...

Searches for the Like button.

Grunfeld

Just saw that if England and Scotland split then England might at freakin' last not have to screw about with the clocks, or rather, get to keep an hour ahead of what we currently do.  Scots can keep GMT and we can be an hour ahead.

I would vote for anything, literally anything or anyone who promises me that. 

[this is pretty much my only interest in any politics as it happens but hey, it's important!]

ICBM

Same here, but the other way round. I'd be much more inclined to vote Yes (I'm genuinely undecided at the moment) if the Scottish Government promises to stop buggering about with the clocks and stick with what they should be all the time at these longitudes - GMT.

If you want to put your clocks an hour ahead and kid yourselves you get more daylight, you're welcome to it .

PolarityMan

If you keep putting the clocks an hour ahead will you eventually have constant daylight leading to mass disruption of circadian rhythm and the ensuing grumpy chaos that would entail?

ICBM

I have decided to vote Yes.

Because I can no longer stomach the posturing of Cameron over Iraq and Syria, the possibility that more British soldiers (including Scots) will be sent to interfere in a war the Westminster government helped create with further meddling in a part of the world where Western interference has never done anything but cause more trouble, and the probability that May will use it to bring in yet more arbitrary police powers and further chisel away at civil liberties.

There are many other reasons I would like to be shot of Westminster. I came to live in Scotland in the first place at least partly because I saw it as the last bastion of resistance in the UK to the Thatcher government and their world view, and I think I would be selling myself out if I didn't follow through on that with regard to their successors. Scotland and its political establishment is not perfect, but it's a lot closer to the sort of country I want to live in.

The currency? Sod it, we'll take our chances.

It's not just Cameron and May, either - obviously they are only the current lot and things can change - but the whole London political class are as bad as each other.

Gagaryn

ICBM said:

I have decided to vote Yes.

Because I can no longer stomach the posturing of Cameron over Iraq and Syria, the possibility that more British soldiers (including Scots) will be sent to interfere in a war the Westminster government helped create with further meddling in a part of the world where Western interference has never done anything but cause more trouble, and the probability that May will use it to bring in yet more arbitrary police powers and further chisel away at civil liberties.

There are many other reasons I would like to be shot of Westminster. I came to live in Scotland in the first place at least partly because I saw it as the last bastion of resistance in the UK to the Thatcher government and their world view, and I think I would be selling myself out if I didn't follow through on that with regard to their successors. Scotland and its political establishment is not perfect, but it's a lot closer to the sort of country I want to live in.

The currency? Sod it, we'll take our chances.

It's not just Cameron and May, either - obviously they are only the current lot and things can change - but the whole London political class are as bad as each other.

Up until recently I've been firmly in the 'No' camp but am starting to have my doubts for similar reasons to you. Still undecided but 'Yes' is looking like a better option day by day. Ironically it is the 'Yes' camp cyber-Nats that are putting me off firmly coming to a 'Yes' conclusion.