Scottish Referendum question(s)

Travisthedog

It annoys me when folks bleat on about hating Westminster

The last labour government was predominantly Scottish including that knob Brown

Have your independence - break up a union that's stood for centuries, then watch investment slide , unemployment rise as the banks and military head south followed by the rest who can't be arsed with the currency issues (why is Salmond so sure he's keeping the pound - it's not his decision)

Then within 10 years it'll be back to woad on yer faces and throwing rocks over hadrians wall
)

Gagaryn

I'm Scottish and one of the quiet majority who will be voting no. All this crap about hating Westminster is ill thought out - politicians are politicians - doesn't matter what party they represent or whether they are in Westminster, Holyrood or further afield - with few exceptions they are a bunch of corrupt game players. 

I agree with ICBM - the best option is an extension of devolution, but this is only possible with a no vote. I take his point that a shared currency would only be granted with conditions but I disagree that the end result would be similar. 

Devolution has worked well, our Education system seems to be more popular and our NHS certainly works better.

BTW - I work for the Scottish Government and NHS. :-)

PolarityMan

with regard to the oil thing, some cursory googling suggests it could be the "catcher" field which was discovered in 2010 and set to deliver first oil in 2017.

Bogwhoppit

One question, 40,000 answers...

Drew_TNBD

Look guise. Just let the illuminati overlords do their job mkaayyy??

hungrymark

johnnyurq;310968" said:

hungrymark;310947" said:Rocker, once upon a time an independent Scotland decided to colonise Panama and, surprisingly, it didn't work out and they went broke so offered union with England.



Seriously.

@hungrymark



Fair enough it was a disaster but one of the main reasons it was as such was due to the English leaders at the time stopping any other country helping or selling us anything that might make it actually happen.



No food and no supplies etc makes it very difficult to eke out a living and get a toe hold extremely different in an already hostile and difficult region.



This was done so that Scotland could not cultivate colonies and move towards being economic and empirical rivals.



Also you need to consider where the funding for the Darien scheme with monies from various countries including England and Englosh speculators who stood to make a shed load if it succeeded.



Maybe if the boot were on the other foot Scotland would have done the same given the times but to say it was a wholly Scottish venture and disaster is not really the correct story. History and these events as very rarely that black or white and are gilded by poepple with vested interests.



I would respectfully suggest that anyone trotting out the Darien Scheme at these moments go and read up on the accurate sequence of events of the time.

Yeah, what I was doing was massively simplifying history into an easily digestible titbit in order to further a fairly narrow-minded agenda. Remind you of anybody?

Also, I'm sorry but the idea of Scotland colonising Panama is just funny, as is the idea that Holyrood politicians will necessarily prove any more morally upstanding than those (including Scots MPs, don't forget) in Westminster.

UnclePsychosis

fretmeister;310921" said:

My Scottish mates suggest that while they quite like the idea of independence they don't like the idea of Alex Salmond at all.

Just as well that the name "Salmond" won't be on the ballot paper on the 18th then. Neither will the name "Cameron". A Yes vote is no more a vote for Salmond than a No is a vote for Cameron. Its much more than any single politician.

UnclePsychosis

[quote]as is the idea that Holyrood politicians will necessarily prove any more morally upstanding than those (including Scots MPs, don't forget) in Westminster.
[/quote]

They won't be more morally upstanding, but at least Scottish voters will be able to vote to get rid of them. We get the Government that English swing voters want. In an independent Scotland I might not get the government I wanted but at least my neighbour might. There are more giant Pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs but our Prime Minister is a Tory! 

Only twice since WW2 have Scots votes made a difference to who formed Government. Our votes are an irrelevance, just like most of the voters in the UK who don't live in the tiny minority of swing seats. All the "UK" parties set their policies on what appeals to swing voters in England, mainly in the South. Many (English) Northeners feel the same sense of alienation and irrelevance when it comes to Westminster politics. 

The thought of a No vote followed by further rule from a Tory party who are desperately looking to UKIP for inspiration or from a Labour party who are increasingly throwing away principles because they're so desperate for power terrifies me.  

ICBM

UnclePsychosis said:

There are more giant Pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs

lol

But true .

imalone

[quote="Fretwired;310959"]imalone said:

Scotland, please don't leave us alone with the English...










If put to the vote I'm sure the English would like to be left alone .... who says we still want anything to do with Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland? I'm for a united Ireland, the Scots can vote yes and have independence and then the English can rebuild Offa's Dyke and blow up the Fourth Bridge and let the Welsh Parliemant continue their good work to date ... :-)



You'll find there are people in Ireland who are not for a united Ireland.
Anyway the whole UK would benefit from broader regional devolution, including the English regions.

Fretwired

imalone said:

[quote="Fretwired;310959"]imalone said:

Scotland, please don't leave us alone with the English...

If put to the vote I'm sure the English would like to be left alone .... who says we still want anything to do with Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland? I'm for a united Ireland, the Scots can vote yes and have independence and then the English can rebuild Offa's Dyke and blow up the Fourth Bridge and let the Welsh Parliemant continue their good work to date ... :-)



You'll find there are people in Ireland who are not for a united Ireland.
Anyway the whole UK would benefit from broader regional devolution, including the English regions.

A devolved England might happen .. the Scots may vote no but the rest of the UK may find that England wants to row it's own boat away from the EU. An international report believes that England could create over two million new jobs and become more propserous by leaving the EU and negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world which it can't do at the moment. The Germans would still want to sell us their cars so we'd get a better deal than Norway and the EU might be a happier place without us. Maybe England doesn't need or want to be linked with Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

johnnyurq

Travisthedog said:

It annoys me when folks bleat on about hating Westminster

The last labour government was predominantly Scottish including that knob Brown

Have your independence - break up a union that's stood for centuries, then watch investment slide , unemployment rise as the banks and military head south followed by the rest who can't be arsed with the currency issues (why is Salmond so sure he's keeping the pound - it's not his decision)

Then within 10 years it'll be back to woad on yer faces and throwing rocks over hadrians wall
)

Well if it is a bag o' shite them we reserve the right to call it so, don't see why it should upset you so much. Many in other parts of the UK would agree with that assesement.

LOL yes circa 60 odd Scots MPs out of circa 650 or so makes us over represented. Considering that Scotland roughly speaking represents 10% of the UK populous seems about right to me.

But the thing is we don't like a fair few of the Scots MPs at Wesminster but they are too up themselves to sit in Scotland as an MSP, they seek the power an to get their noses in the trough, well the well known twats like Brown and that in any case.

But lets not let the facts get in the way of a rant eh.

Frankly the rest of your post is exactly why the average non Nat Scot despairs and vote yes.

johnnyurq

hungrymark said

Yeah, what I was doing was massively simplifying history into an easily digestible titbit in order to further a fairly narrow-minded agenda. Remind you of anybody? 

Also, I'm sorry but the idea of Scotland colonising Panama is just funny, as is the idea that Holyrood politicians will necessarily prove any more morally upstanding than those (including Scots MPs, don't forget) in Westminster.

Well @hungrymark in my later posts I clarified I wasn't having a go but putting another point of view (backed up by scholars with you know research and shit) but you seem to have taken it to heart a bit.

I actually had a bet with myself as to how long into the thread darien would be mentioned and got close, although I had thought someone else would be the one to do so.

Of course as I said in other posts here factually Darien did lead to the events that brought the Union about, but the nice little well the Scots fucked up is not the entire story. Yes it was predominantly due to being a poorly thought out and resourced venture and an over reach.

We will never know for sure due to the actions of the East India Company/England, privateers and others with an interest in it not succeeding.

Whatever you, I or anyone says in the here and now we cannot be certain.

It also needs consideration the make up of those that planned and helped fund it, predominantly Scots but not all.

LOL at you thinking it is funny because you have to remember England, Scotland and indeed Britain/UK have time and again punched well above their weight and made bonkers things that seemed doomed to fail work somehow.

Regrading the MSP's on the whole they are less starry eyed than their Westminster counterpoints and for now not as big douche bags, in time I concede that may change.

Don't confuse them with the much more heavyweight Scots MPs at Westminster though they are very different animals, for now. Maybe it is because they are more parochial and afraid of getting bawled out in the street, as they generally do if they are dicks.

My place is a case in point because we have the cross to bear that is Danny Alexander (long history of Liberal and Lib Dem MPs here) who gets a right good and deserved hard time or egged.

Also as I was expanding on the fact of Darien bringing about the union I cannot see how it was narrower than the much reduced version trotted out. So your swipe at me is pointless because I know I have no agenda beyond giving another point of view.

As a person who enjoys history and all that jazz I read a lot about it and watch a great many documentaries it irks me when reductionist and quite often very inaccurate versions are perpetuated, that is not limited to matters Scottish. Just that I the failed Darien cropped up here,and at MR on almost every discussion related toScotland and not in a banter sort of way either.

So yes it gets on my thruppenies and I react, but I assure you no agenda narrow or otherwise.

Anyway no offence meant.

 

johnnyurq

Fretwired said:

imalone said:

[quote="Fretwired;310959"]imalone said:

Scotland, please don't leave us alone with the English...

If put to the vote I'm sure the English would like to be left alone .... who says we still want anything to do with Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland? I'm for a united Ireland, the Scots can vote yes and have independence and then the English can rebuild Offa's Dyke and blow up the Fourth Bridge and let the Welsh Parliemant continue their good work to date ... :-)



You'll find there are people in Ireland who are not for a united Ireland.
Anyway the whole UK would benefit from broader regional devolution, including the English regions.

A devolved England might happen .. the Scots may vote no but the rest of the UK may find that England wants to row it's own boat away from the EU. An international report believes that England could create over two million new jobs and become more propserous by leaving the EU and negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world which it can't do at the moment. The Germans would still want to sell us their cars so we'd get a better deal than Norway and the EU might be a happier place without us. Maybe England doesn't need or want to be linked with Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

LOL

Its our ball and we are taking it home, we hate you all. 

/playground

Only messing dude I agree that devolution for more of the UK could or would be a good thing in the hope we all get closer to the governance we want. I am for it not against.

If more Devo had been offered up I would reckon the appetite for a referendum would have been near nil and if the whole debacle achieves that then I would be OK with that.

Personally I will be glad when it is all over for good or for ill.

Oh BTW the Forth Bridges are a long way from the border and are not required to get to and from it, so blowing them up will achieve much bar thinking you have joined Al Queda or the militant arm of Britain First.

johnnyurq

Drew_fx said:

Look guise. Just let the illuminati overlords do their job mkaayyy??

Fuck that shit I am off to Bohemian Grove to worship a 40 foot black stone owl and wear women's clothing (shut up it is a comfort thing, honest).

Shmoozing with the illuminati/new world order is bound to get me wealth, power and more importantly women. Now where is my lizard suit.

Any suggestions for a lizard person name?

Gagaryn

Fretwired said:

If put to the vote I'm sure the English would like to be left alone .... who says we still want anything to do with Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland? I'm for a united Ireland, the Scots can vote yes and have independence and then the English can rebuild Offa's Dyke and blow up the Fourth Bridge and let the Welsh Parliemant continue their good work to date ... :-)

The Forth Bridge? Why, you trying to make add half an hour on my journey to Fife? ;-)

chillidoggy

If the Scots vote yes for independence, does that mean they will have to leave the Fretboard, too?

Drew_TNBD

johnnyurq;311478" said:

LOL

Its our ball and we are taking it home, we hate you all. 

/playground

Scottish independence? Yup. Bout sums it up. :P

Fretwired

Gagaryn said:

Fretwired said:

If put to the vote I'm sure the English would like to be left alone .... who says we still want anything to do with Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland? I'm for a united Ireland, the Scots can vote yes and have independence and then the English can rebuild Offa's Dyke and blow up the Fourth Bridge and let the Welsh Parliemant continue their good work to date ... :-)

The Forth Bridge? Why, you trying to make add half an hour on my journey to Fife? ;-)

Because I'm a twat ... :-)

I meant the Severn bridge into Wales ...

Fretwired

johnnyurq said:

Fretwired said:

imalone said:

[quote="Fretwired;310959"]imalone said:

Scotland, please don't leave us alone with the English...

If put to the vote I'm sure the English would like to be left alone .... who says we still want anything to do with Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland? I'm for a united Ireland, the Scots can vote yes and have independence and then the English can rebuild Offa's Dyke and blow up the Fourth Bridge and let the Welsh Parliemant continue their good work to date ... :-)



You'll find there are people in Ireland who are not for a united Ireland.
Anyway the whole UK would benefit from broader regional devolution, including the English regions.

A devolved England might happen .. the Scots may vote no but the rest of the UK may find that England wants to row it's own boat away from the EU. An international report believes that England could create over two million new jobs and become more propserous by leaving the EU and negotiating trade deals with the rest of the world which it can't do at the moment. The Germans would still want to sell us their cars so we'd get a better deal than Norway and the EU might be a happier place without us. Maybe England doesn't need or want to be linked with Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

LOL

Its our ball and we are taking it home, we hate you all. 

/playground

Only messing dude I agree that devolution for more of the UK could or would be a good thing in the hope we all get closer to the governance we want. I am for it not against.

If more Devo had been offered up I would reckon the appetite for a referendum would have been near nil and if the whole debacle achieves that then I would be OK with that.

Personally I will be glad when it is all over for good or for ill.

Oh BTW the Forth Bridges are a long way from the border and are not required to get to and from it, so blowing them up will achieve much bar thinking you have joined Al Queda or the militant arm of Britain First.

I do wonder if Cameron and Salmond have agreed a sort of plan. If 45% of Scots vote yes and 55% vote no then there's no devolution. However Salmond could easily argue there's a case for more devolution and Cameron could agree. The UK remains [so no issue about currency etc]. Westminster becomes an English parliament. The Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish get more devolution and tax raising powers and there's a cabinet of the nations made up of representatives from the various nations to deal with matters that affect everyone like defence. It could be run like the EU with a rolling presidency so everyone gets a chance to sit in the big chair.