Anyone had a set up from J White Guitars in Ash Vale?

Lewy

EduardoFalicioni said:

Yes, and they are at present telling me that they won’t be drilling and doweling to the width of the countersink - they proposed either to leave the counter sink or to use filler

I'm perplexed that you're even entertaining the idea of letting them undertake the remedial work if I'm honest

WezV

They only way to repair this is to drill the full width of the damage and fit grain matched plugs (not dowels as the custom shop guy said, but he may just be using the word because people dont always understand the difference.)   There is no need for any filler at all,  it needs to be back to solid wood.

Structurally, this will be good as new for not much work.  Getting it aesthetically perfect is very difficult, and the value is still affected either way.

EduardoFalicioni

Lewy said:

EduardoFalicioni said:

Yes, and they are at present telling me that they won’t be drilling and doweling to the width of the countersink - they proposed either to leave the counter sink or to use filler

I'm perplexed that you're even entertaining the idea of letting them undertake the remedial work if I'm honest

It’s the only option they will entertain - but I’m going to speak to them tomorrow as I don’t want this continued stress and annoyance 

EduardoFalicioni

WezV said:

They only way to repair this is to drill the full width of the damage and fit grain matched plugs (not dowels as the custom shop guy said, but he may just be using the word because people dont always understand the difference.)   There is no need for any filler at all,  it needs to be back to solid wood.

Structurally, this will be good as new for not much work.  Getting it aesthetically perfect is very difficult, and the value is still affected either way.

I said exactly the same, I want the wood drilled out to the full width of the countersink.

i then want them to selectively cut ‘doner plugs’ from a selected  billet of swampash, where the billets and in a turn the plugs derived from it, are chosen for grain match.

the doner plugs of swamp ash then need to be installed grain oriented, just shy of the surrounding finished surface, so the finish infill can then be built up in appropriately tinted layers of nitro (and maybe sealer first). So we end up with a repair that’s of the same materials and composition and the surrounding original 

but of course; they are saying;

“To make it clear, we do not plan on drilling any part of the countersink area. We only plan to drill the correct size hole for the insert. The finished job can either show countersinking or this countersunk area can be filled, lacquered and stained”.

agian, I just wish they’d done the honourable thing and bought the guitars off me, as I want nothing more to do with them or the situation - I want to be free of all the stress and upset 

EduardoFalicioni

WezV said:

They only way to repair this is to drill the full width of the damage and fit grain matched plugs (not dowels as the custom shop guy said, but he may just be using the word because people dont always understand the difference.)   There is no need for any filler at all,  it needs to be back to solid wood.

Structurally, this will be good as new for not much work.  Getting it aesthetically perfect is very difficult, and the value is still affected either way.

Jason the master builder was talking about dowels in respect of repairs the also terrible neck heel inserts

Lewy

EduardoFalicioni said:

Lewy said:

EduardoFalicioni said:

Yes, and they are at present telling me that they won’t be drilling and doweling to the width of the countersink - they proposed either to leave the counter sink or to use filler

I'm perplexed that you're even entertaining the idea of letting them undertake the remedial work if I'm honest

It’s the only option they will entertain - but I’m going to speak to them tomorrow as I don’t want this continued stress and annoyance 

Obviously you need to do what's right for your mental health (and I'm going to need to absent myself from this thread because it's actually starting to stress me out!) but it really shouldn't be about what they will or won't entertain. They've blown that chance. The only choice they should be offered is between buying the guitars off you at an agreed rate, or electing to be taken to the small claims court and incur a legal decision going against them, with the corresponding impact on the standing of their business, and further reputational damage.

I sincerely wish you the best with this. Like most I imagine, I'm incandescent on your behalf!

WezV

EduardoFalicioni said:

WezV said:

They only way to repair this is to drill the full width of the damage and fit grain matched plugs (not dowels as the custom shop guy said, but he may just be using the word because people dont always understand the difference.)   There is no need for any filler at all,  it needs to be back to solid wood.

Structurally, this will be good as new for not much work.  Getting it aesthetically perfect is very difficult, and the value is still affected either way.

Jason the master builder was talking about dowels in respect of repairs the also terrible neck heel inserts

If he actually meant dowels then his master builder label doesn't make him a master repair man   I assume he meant plugs.

 Dowels have the grain going along the length of the dowel, the opposite to the neck wood. Plugs have the grain going the opposite way, so they can be cut to match the surrounding wood.

Whether it's the neck damage or body, plugs are the way to go.  I suppose you could get away with dowels in the body as the load is minimal.  Dowels in the neck would strip out very easily.

Offset

Seriously Eduardo... I really would not be looking for remediation with the business that messed up.  Just cash.

JezWynd

EduardoFalicioni said:

Lewy said:

EduardoFalicioni said:

Yes, and they are at present telling me that they won’t be drilling and doweling to the width of the countersink - they proposed either to leave the counter sink or to use filler

I'm perplexed that you're even entertaining the idea of letting them undertake the remedial work if I'm honest

It’s the only option they will entertain - but I’m going to speak to them tomorrow as I don’t want this continued stress and annoyance 

Their brass neck is staggering.

Dr_Necessiter

Eduardo,
Have a word with your solicitors. The way this works is that you go to someone who can reliably remedy the damage and then charge the fee back to Messrs White plus a sum in damages for the loss in value caused by the damage to your guitars. If they don’t pay, you sue the shit out of them. 

You’re entitled to be put in the position financially that you would have been in had they carried out the work satisfactorily. 

Don’t let those morons anywhere near your guitars; I doubt they are capable of putting them right. 

TTony

Dr_Necessiter said:

Eduardo,
Have a word with your solicitors. The way this works is that you go to someone who can reliably remedy the damage and then charge the fee back to Messrs White plus a sum in damages for the loss in value caused by the damage to your guitars. If they don’t pay, you sue the shit out of them. 

You’re entitled to be put in the position financially that you would have been in had they carried out the work satisfactorily. 

Don’t let those morons anywhere near your guitars; I doubt they are capable of putting them right. 

This.

And nothing else.

OilCityPickups

TTony said:

Dr_Necessiter said:

Eduardo,
Have a word with your solicitors. The way this works is that you go to someone who can reliably remedy the damage and then charge the fee back to Messrs White plus a sum in damages for the loss in value caused by the damage to your guitars. If they don’t pay, you sue the shit out of them. 

You’re entitled to be put in the position financially that you would have been in had they carried out the work satisfactorily. 

Don’t let those morons anywhere near your guitars; I doubt they are capable of putting them right. 

This.

And nothing else.

Absolutely 

Boromedic

What @Dr_Necessiter said, by engaging with them and possibly allowing them to convince you to let them do the work, you are losing any leverage you have at getting that damage repaired correctly (as you state you do), and also financial recompense for the value loss. 

Next steps should be:

Professional appraisal for cost of repairs and value loss.

Notice before action detailing this.

If they fail to agree > small claims.

These guys have really f**ked up your guitars, do not give them a second chance to make them worse.

EduardoFalicioni

Current state, with 7 of the 8 pickguard inserts removed, and a fair bit of the filler they used (after removing the neck inserts that they’d erroneously installed in body) coming with it - so left with large holes with a pronounced countersunk rim and residual filler to deal with

Kurtis

How did they manage that?! 

Doesn't even look like that difficult a job, if you have the correct tools and a bit of know how. 

WezV

Kurtis said:

How did they manage that?! 

Doesn't even look like that difficult a job, if you have the correct tools and a bit of know how. 

It is a difficult job because that nitro that crazes so well will flake very easily when  put under the stress needed to install these things 

...

Looking at that pic, I honestly don't actually think they did a terrible job on the body given what they were working with.   I see chipping out of the very brittle top coat... hard to avoid on that sort of finish.

But it's the neck ones that are really bad, and if the ones above are in the wrong place that is obviously a major issue even  if they were perfectly installed.

sev112

Eduardo.  It is gutting to see all this, it really is.
But please do not take too much advice or rely on the mass responses of us guitarists.
The only thing that matters is your lawyers’ advice.  If the “tech” gave you a written terms and co dictions on his quote for example, or a contract which says that the remedy in case of inadequate work is to redo the work at their cost, then it doesn’t matter what we all say about what options there are, that is the contract, and that is what he is liable for, not the cost of the guitars,  If you don’t have a contract which explicitly says what happens in a dispute then it is subject to the whims and arguments at a court, and who knows what that outcome will be and how much it will cost.  Even if you take him to Small Claims court, if he has a contract that says otherwise, you are far from guaranteed to get a satisfactory remedy.  I therefore hope you don’t have a written contract which says that.

but please now, get that legal advice .  Remember, you can be liable for their costs 7nder the Small Coaims court if you lose, so please get that advice,  I feel really really sorry for you, but you need that advice now.

Good luck for as positive an outcome as is possible

Sporky

A contract has to be fair to be valid. Lots of online vendors have terms and conditions that don't stand up when challenged. Lots of employment contracts have terms that are unenforceable. 

EduardoFalicioni

WezV said:

Kurtis said:

How did they manage that?! 

Doesn't even look like that difficult a job, if you have the correct tools and a bit of know how. 

It is a difficult job because that nitro that crazes so well will flake very easily when  put under the stress needed to install these things 

...

Looking at that pic, I honestly don't actually think they did a terrible job on the body given what they were working with.   I see chipping out of the very brittle top coat... hard to avoid on that sort of finish.

But it's the neck ones that are really bad, and if the ones above are in the wrong place that is obviously a major issue even  if they were perfectly installed.

????? They installed neck inserts for 1 1/2” machines screws in the body…

Asked for this 

Got this after they realised the mistake 8 neck inserts in, and removed them, putting the correct pickguard inserts in filler 

You don’t see the issue with all that?

WezV

I do see the issue, but also understand how it happens.  Not defending, just giving a balanced view based on the pictures you supplied.  The full body pic shows less of an issue than the zoomed in pic of one insert.

The alignment and bad installation of the neck inserts is a much bigger issue in my eyes.  It's massively wrong and you have a case based on that.  The other issue is the body inserts being in the wrong place for your chosen plate.  These alone are significant.

I never would have put any type of screw insert in the body.  Push fit would work fine for the low load application.

That  example pic you show is never gonna happen on a brittle nitro finish with  screw in insert.  This is what you should have been told from the start.