Anyone had a set up from J White Guitars in Ash Vale?

BillDL

The relevant part of the act in context with this scenario:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/part/1/chapter/4/crossheading/can-a-trader-contract-out-of-statutory-rights-and-remedies-under-a-services-contract

Dr_Necessiter

For Eduardo,

Whilst the cost of two brand new replacement guitars of this type (£7k each if I read correctly) is outside the financial limit for the small claims court, the cost of remedying the damage plus some compensation for the damage done to them should easily fall within that limit. 

Another thing to consider, I'm not sure of the value of the guitar you bought to cover off the time whilst your others were unplayable, but I get the sense that you are a professional musician and, in that case, having an instrument to play is a necessity. Consequently, you may be able to claim back the cost of the replacement or get a contribution towards it. Anyway your total claim might easily be less than £10k and you could specifically limit the total value of your claim so as to bring it within the remit of the small claims court.

It's a no-cost forum so neither party can claim back their lawyer's costs and it's designed to be user friendly for those with no legal background and there will be guides on line as to how to bring a claim should that become an issue.

Norlin4life

WezV said:

I do see the issue, but also understand how it happens.  Not defending, just giving a balanced view based on the pictures you supplied.  The full body pic shows less of an issue than the zoomed in pic of one insert.

The alignment and bad installation of the neck inserts is a much bigger issue in my eyes.  It's massively wrong and you have a case based on that.  The other issue is the body inserts being in the wrong place for your chosen plate.  These alone are significant.

I never would have put any type of screw insert in the body.  Push fit would work fine for the low load application.

That  example pic you show is never gonna happen on a brittle nitro finish with  screw in insert.  This is what you should have been told from the start. 

Wez, it absolutely is a terrible job and I’m not sure how you can think otherwise. I’ve an engineering/architectural background and have installed threaded inserts into some ridiculously tricky pieces of timber at all sorts of angles. On a properly set up drill press with a very sharp bit (run high speed in reverse to cleanly cut the lacquer first) you’d get a perfect finish without too much effort. You can also use some low tack silicone tape over the area to be drilled which will avoid chipping.

The issue is that unless it’s a job you’re going to be doing multiple times, it’s not worth taking on as you need specific jigs for the body holes and the neck (which is more complicated).

The luthier should have passed on the job knowing that he’d achieve very poor results. Unfortunately no amount of remedial work will ‘fix’ the problem now. You can plug and fill/re-drill the holes but no one would buy that guitar used without a crazy discount. At this point it’s probably just a painful life lesson and he should have it repaired to a decent standard and enjoy the guitars for what they are.

Quite honestly, threaded inserts into a guitar body are completely unnecessary to begin with. If a screw hole is stripped you can plug with a very thin piece of maple and just re-drill. If you’re going to be fiddling with your internals so frequently that it’ll happen again, I’d suggest a guitar that has no pickguard or simply leaving it off along with the covers.

BillDL

Norlin4life said:

Quite honestly, threaded inserts into a guitar body are completely unnecessary to begin with.

The anchor bushings and bolts were most certainly chosen for aesthetic purposes - "an elegant solution" - to quote the OP from numerous pages back when referring to the rear trem cover plate and spring claw anchoring with a photo as an example of how it should have looked.  Unfortunately they are now poorly executed and ugly, and the luthier clearly was overconfident in his skills to install them neatly and accurately.  I agree about the "unnecessary" judgement, but not all guitar mods are for functional purposes.

sev112

Sporky said:

sev112 said:

Sporky said:

A contract has to be fair to be valid. Lots of online vendors have terms and conditions that don't stand up when challenged. Lots of employment contracts have terms that are unenforceable. 

I have no idea where you get that concept from. They have to be legal to be valid, but they certainly do not have to be fair.  And if you were taking that argument,  and you imagine how much legal fees that would cost to have that argument with people of a different view.  Even if you feel that some terms are unenforceable, when one chooses to engage with a party when there are many other parities out there, one has demonstrated choice.  It is an extremely difficult legal argument, extremely costly, and quite possibly/probably a losing argument.  Not at all helpful to the poor OP in this case,

Your post said that whatever their contract said is enforceable. That's not inherently true, which is why so many contracts also say something along the lines of "if one bit of this is deemed unenforceable that doesn't affect the rest".

"Fair" might have been too simplistic a word; contracts need to benefit both parties. "Balanced" might be better. They also cannot, for example, sign away your statutory rights - no matter what they say.

I do agree that proper qualified legal advice is necessary, I just disagree with the notion that the contract (if there is a written one) is the be all and end all.

That said, the government has a page about unfair contracts, which strongly suggests that contracts should be legally "fair". 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/unfair-contract-terms-cma37

I think you are very right.  Especially on the contract being the end-all or not.  But it is the document that courts go to to start with.  I mean Manchester City think the Premier League spending contract is “unfair” after having voted for it.  It will be jnteresting what the outcome of that legal consideration is, as well as the costs of making that assertion 
with no doubt in a expensive legal case those arguments as to whether a particular contract is in fact unfair, or just is to someone else’s advantage in a particular scenario is a particularly expensive and uncertain outcome, certainly in a case like this.  As well as a theoretically interesting debate.  But given all you and I have said, I’m not sure I would put my colours to the mast on that one.

fretfinder

Norlin4life said: At this point it’s probably just a painful life lesson and he should have it repaired to a decent standard and enjoy the guitars for what they are. 

Totally agree. Get them fixed properly (maybe Feline), enjoy playing the guitars and only after that worry about whether there’s any legal recourse. 

Norlin4life said: Quite honestly, threaded inserts into a guitar body are completely unnecessary to begin with.

Agree again, they’re a solution looking for a problem! 

guitarjack66

fretfinder said:

Norlin4life said: At this point it’s probably just a painful life lesson and he should have it repaired to a decent standard and enjoy the guitars for what they are. 

Totally agree. Get them fixed properly (maybe Feline), enjoy playing the guitars and only after that worry about whether there’s any legal recourse. 

Norlin4life said: Quite honestly, threaded inserts into a guitar body are completely unnecessary to begin with.

Agree again, they’re a solution looking for a problem! 

Maybe the cost of a proper repair would have been the same as buying another guitar,which they seem to have done? Obviously,if the poster is a gigging musician, or even pro,then it's something of a necessity.

joeW

Brio said:

Oi! I'm the OP and I got the answers I needed halfway down page 1. 
Sounds like I dodged a bullet.

So you aren’t going to use them?  Seems a bit hasty no.,,

Offset

joeW said:

Brio said:

Oi! I'm the OP and I got the answers I needed halfway down page 1. 
Sounds like I dodged a bullet.

So you aren’t going to use them?  Seems a bit hasty no.,,

I don't suppose your surname is 'White' is it...? 

BillDL

I see that Eduardo's Imgur images are no longer embedded in his comments.

TrentGuitars

For those who want an easy way to do this, this is how I do it, I use my bridgeport (a milling machine with a quill, overkill) to drill out the holes with a depth stop, I do a pilot then 7mm for my inserts, I then also use my 8.5mm countersink to break the surface which lets the inserts drop in nice. I then use a little 3D printed jig I made to make sure they go in straight, it holds the majority of the body of the insert so it guides it in square whilst I hold it in on with my offhand, works every time. The 4mm is in a 4.5mm hole so is held nice and firm straight up and down above the shouldered insert.

OilCityPickups

BillDL said:

I see that Eduardo's Imgur images are no longer embedded in his comments.

How very odd 

Brio

joeW said:

Brio said:

Oi! I'm the OP and I got the answers I needed halfway down page 1. 
Sounds like I dodged a bullet.

So you aren’t going to use them?  Seems a bit hasty no.,,

Hmmm. Guitar builder in the London area named Joe W?
I'm assuming a builder based on that workshop pic in your profile...
Do you ever drink in The Swan?
:-)

Brio

OilCityPickups said:

BillDL said:

I see that Eduardo's Imgur images are no longer embedded in his comments.

How very odd 

Nah. Threatened or bought off I reckon...
:-)

borntohang

Brio said:

joeW said:

Brio said:

Oi! I'm the OP and I got the answers I needed halfway down page 1. 
Sounds like I dodged a bullet.

So you aren’t going to use them?  Seems a bit hasty no.,,

Hmmm. Guitar builder in the London area named Joe W?
I'm assuming a builder based on that workshop pic in your profile...
Do you ever drink in The Swan?
:-)

@joeW has been a member for some years so I'm assuming is just making a joke about the three years between start and revival of this thread, and the 16 pages or posts, being a bit hasty. The username is definitely unfortunate though!

Edit: also if we're being charitable Imgur has been getting notorious for taking down images hosted without an associated account, which may be why all Eduardos pics got nuked. 

digitalscream

Brio said:

OilCityPickups said:

BillDL said:

I see that Eduardo's Imgur images are no longer embedded in his comments.

How very odd 

Nah. Threatened or bought off I reckon...
:-)

None of the above, I'm afraid. Our Eduardo took exception to my request for him to calm down a bit so as not to antagonise the natives. Then he spent an hour deleting all of his posts (which I've since restored), then deleted all the images from Imgur, and hasn't been seen since.

Tele37

digitalscream said:

Brio said:

OilCityPickups said:

BillDL said:

I see that Eduardo's Imgur images are no longer embedded in his comments.

How very odd 

Nah. Threatened or bought off I reckon...
:-)

None of the above, I'm afraid. Our Eduardo took exception to my request for him to calm down a bit so as not to antagonise the natives. Then he spent an hour deleting all of his posts (which I've since restored), then deleted all the images from Imgur, and hasn't been seen since.

It was getting a bit out of hand. Clearly he was very upset and had a bad experience/result, but it’s not an ‘end of the world’ situation. All the repair mistakes can be easily fixed and they will never be seen (either hidden under a pickguard or in the neck pocket). The guitars will play, sound and perform exactly as they once did. Life is too short to get stressed and dwell on this stuff.

soma1975

To be fair it was so bad that I was getting stressed and dwelling on it myself, but if I watched Meg 2: The Trench all the way to the end, I need to know how this story concluded too!

Brio

I’m kind of hoping the thread gets locked. I don’t need closure and am tired of so many notifications.

Offset

^^ Yep.  Eduardo may have very good reasons why he was deleting his posts and pics.  Best not to speculate as to why as it may be to his detriment.